Long-Time OOTP player

MKG1734 · 05-25-2025, 05:53 PM

Hello all,
.
I used to play OOTP for many years; starting probably around 2012 thru 2018 or 2019. I have not had time in recent years to play [having a family precludes time], but having a bit more time now and again to begin playing again.
.
I was what Markus Heinsohn would probably considered a critic of the AI as I posted many times about things that did not seem to work properly and we had many one-on-one DM discussions about fixes, etc.
.
Here are some of my posts from years ago, and I'd like to know if these issues persist or if they have been fixed:
.
Additionally; if any OOTP vets would like to inform me of any issues with the current game I should most definitely be made aware of before starting, I would very much appreciate it.
.
In no particular order:
.
#1: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...13&postcount=1
.
#2: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...hlight=MKG1734
.
#3: Without searching for previous posts; does the draft work well over many sim-seasons? As in, does the player distribution seem to work correctly 30 years down the line?

Rain King · 05-25-2025, 06:13 PM

The AI has improved with every version of the game.

It is not, and never will be, perfect.

WhiskyTango · 05-25-2025, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Hello all,
.
I used to play OOTP for many years; starting probably around 2012 thru 2018 or 2019. I have not had time in recent years to play [having a family precludes time], but having a bit more time now and again to begin playing again.
.
I was what Markus Heinsohn would probably considered a critic of the AI as I posted many times about things that did not seem to work properly and we had many one-on-one DM discussions about fixes, etc.
.
Here are some of my posts from years ago, and I'd like to know if these issues persist or if they have been fixed:
.
Additionally; if any OOTP vets would like to inform me of any issues with the current game I should most definitely be made aware of before starting, I would very much appreciate it.
.
In no particular order:
.
#1: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...13&postcount=1
.
#2: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...hlight=MKG1734
.
#3: Without searching for previous posts; does the draft work well over many sim-seasons? As in, does the player distribution seem to work correctly 30 years down the line?

Can only speak to the first issue. In a sense I'd say the same thing occurs. In my example, playing historical with 90/5/3/2 Eval settings, I have rookie HoFers drafted, signed and released. And each season I'd find top rated prospects released, for no apparent reason obvously. Their potential ratings of course are through the roof. Unless there's something I'm missing about eval ratings and potential ratings it would seem like at least a similar issue.

MKG1734 · 05-25-2025, 10:44 PM

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Sad to think the AI has similar, drastic errors occurring a decade later ��
.
Is the AI capable of properly promoting players thru the minors now as compared to 10 versions ago?
.
Does the league become drastic imbalanced thru the draft imbalances after 20 or so sim seasons as it did 10 versions ago?

WhiskyTango · 05-27-2025, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Sad to think the AI has similar, drastic errors occurring a decade later ��
.
Is the AI capable of properly promoting players thru the minors now as compared to 10 versions ago?
.
Does the league become drastic imbalanced thru the draft imbalances after 20 or so sim seasons as it did 10 versions ago?

Promoting players: To me this is a bit ambiguous since we must allow for individual manager ratings, if such things matter to game play.

Let me mention a few obvious errors I notice and regularly play with each season:

- releasing top prospects (already mentioned)

- sign/release error:
a player is signed/released many times over in a short time span (day, week). Error is neutralized by removing roster size restrictions for ALL MiL teams/levels (not just the lowest, as the developers suggest). The result obviously is now I can't control roster sizes. Example: my lowest level team last I checked had at one point this season 11 fielders and over 30 pitchers. However, generally I think it does a decent enough job overall, though for a management game that is obviously not ideal since it removes a major component of management.

- age restriction error:
I seem to notice correlation if not outright causation between setting a lower age limit on MLB level and the annual amateur draft. My age limit was 21, the idea being an underage player would be drafted and immediately go to MiL until at least 21 yoa. However, I noticed underagers were not showing up in the annual draft list. In fact, they often would not even be signed as FAs. Example (among many): Ted Williams sat around unsigned and not appearing in draft lists until the year he turned 21, then he is signed AND KEPT. He was signed as a teenager but was released. So maybe the game Eval settings don't recognize potential ratings? But aren't all ratings in effect potential ratings? Why would actual potential ratings be excluded from Eval settings?? Anyway, so like the roster size error, I can't mold rosters age-wise and I have teenagers playing MLB far more often than would have occured IRL (though my "historical save" is not strictly historical). And I have 30 year old FAs signed by the AGM playing in my rookie ball league until they generate enough pro years to transfer out.

- player movement:
it's fairly impressive to see the amount of transaction activity that goes on in the game re MiL signings and releases. There's something always going on which adds that backdrop to the game. That said, I suspect much of it is window-dressing in that it's the appearance of roster-building, rather than any substantial difference being made. Which is totally fine, that's not a criticism. It adds a dimension to the _game_ (underlined that word), but if one bothered to scrutinize the deals he wouldn't likely see much occuring other than exchanging players. Occasionally I have to disengage AI control over a player's promo/demo, but not often and I tend to prefer the AGM manage that overall.

- trades:
the game's "approach" just baffles me. I learned I need to stay on top of protecting players from sudden, unexpected AGM movements, particularly releasing good players. AGM involvement in trades is better to have an off-switch for. I have never seen any AGM input into a potential trade to be anything other than random text fields. I have never found AGM input relevant to anything much less interesting or useful and often I felt that with trades. And with trades either the AGM is making ridiculous attempts or non-attempts or doesn't do anything at all. AGM never gets involved with trade-making at the deadline or winter meetings.

- signing restricted player types error:
This has been quite frustrating. My game settings restrict fictional MiL from reaching the MLB level. Yet the game persists in attempting or succeeding at signing fictional players, and often for top level major league contracts. So teams alotting 10% of signing budget to essentially a non-player, year after year is an error, and corrupts the game. I've had to manually delete these players when they appear and monitor what the AGM is doing in pending signings or he's going to blow a substantial part of the budget on signing nothing.

WITH ALL THAT SAID (and while more could be said) -- I still spend time on it every week. I don't take it too seriously of course. With all the options at my disposal to have a computer game on my laptop this is the one that has stuck around the longest and likely moving forward, may be the only game I bother with.

MKG1734 · 05-27-2025, 08:23 PM

Very much appreciate your response
.
It seems not much has really changed in over a decade.
.
I had asked Markus years ago and didn't get a, "no," so I suspect this is what deal is [and the 10 years with minimal difference [unfortunately] strengthens my case]:
.
I suspect the games code was not expertly written to start and then layered with changes and changes over time yet still built upon faulty code. As a result the game will never actually work properly and so now there is just cosmetic changes added and some new game options added but the underlying logic remains broken. The only way this game will truly move forward would be to take the time to stop with all the new features and tear down the code and rewrite it so that it functions properly [this is also why the sim speeds crawl with all the options selected] bc the code is likely such an albatross.
.
If the developers don't want to spend time on a code teardown to make it correct then they SHOULD release the game in open source so that modders can see the code and both spend their time to fix it and also to identify big issues to tell the developers. The game would get a big boost and the developers would get, in essence, free labor. I think many people would help and the game would get much, much better.
.
I used to have a big presence on here a decade ago so maybe now someone with a big presence currently will try to get Matt Arnold [or whoever] to open the game up to get some real progress made

Bobfather · 05-27-2025, 11:12 PM

Think of it this way, you have a friend that you see every day for 10 years, you probably don't notice much of a change. Now, if you haven't seen that friend in 10 years, you will notice all the changes. Asking me to compare the current game to 10 years ago is impossible due to recency bias. The whole ratings system has been reworked, with new 3D stadiums and play. Real rosters from high school on up. And many other things I would say 100s if not 1000s of changes, just look at the topic names on the forum, or the changelog for the latest patch. Is it perfect hell, no. But what is? I think it is by far the best Baseball sim around.

Brad K · 05-27-2025, 11:18 PM

...

MKG1734 · 05-27-2025, 11:36 PM

Open source the games code and the game will get immensely better, quickly. It is the only way forward. Ratings system, rosters from HS to MLB, 3D stadiums and play ... all of this is cosmetic candy but if all the same issues persist from a decade ago [they seemingly do, based on the other posts above], then those cosmetic changes are just a new coat of paint over the same broken vehicle.
.
Since its clear there hasn't been actual, real AI improvement, the only way to get there will be to open source the code and the community will get everyone closer to the product we all actually want

mr-cpu-geek · Yesterday, 04:08 AM

Why on earth would they open source their code? That is just a ridiculous suggestion.

Why would someone who has been away for ten years want to come back and try to stir the pot? You obviously have no other intention.

Dude, just, get over it. Buy the game and enjoy it. Or don’t. But don’t come on here with this nonsense.

It’s a video game doing a damn good job at simulating real like baseball. Not perfect. Never will be. No video game ever will be.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brad K · Yesterday, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Open source the games code and the game will get immensely better, quickly. It is the only way forward. Ratings system, rosters from HS to MLB, 3D stadiums and play ... all of this is cosmetic candy but if all the same issues persist from a decade ago [they seemingly do, based on the other posts above], then those cosmetic changes are just a new coat of paint over the same broken vehicle.
.
Since its clear there hasn't been actual, real AI improvement, the only way to get there will be to open source the code and the community will get everyone closer to the product we all actually want

If the community involvement in creating a Wiki to replace the manual is an indication, there is no chance of this happening.

WhiskyTango · Yesterday, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKG1734

If the developers don't want to spend time on a code teardown to make it correct then they SHOULD release the game in open source so that modders can see the code and both spend their time to fix it and also to identify big issues to tell the developers. The game would get a big boost and the developers would get, in essence, free labor. I think many people would help and the game would get much, much better.

Yea, this one puzzles me. They crafted a game to have SO many options for modifying practically every aspect. No one yet likely has likely even utilized much less exhausted modification potentials this game offers. And yet... they did nothing to cultivate that, really. The chronic issues - even down to stat management and display - remained ridiculoulsy chronic (the UI for example). Why not open up some of these things at least? My guess is that with such a small development team it takes on a "this is my baby" aura. Iow, it remained in developer vs business mode. No developer will welcome others to mess with his creation.

mytreds · Yesterday, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I suspect the games code was not expertly written to start and then layered with changes and changes over time yet still built upon faulty code. As a result the game will never actually work properly and so now there is just cosmetic changes added and some new game options added but the underlying logic remains broken. The only way this game will truly move forward would be to take the time to stop with all the new features and tear down the code and rewrite it so that it functions properly [this is also why the sim speeds crawl with all the options selected] bc the code is likely such an albatross.

This is the problem with many, if not all, recurring game titles. Unfortunately for us, the consumers, there is little to no competition to OOTP. So there’s little incentive to change.

WhiskyTango · Yesterday, 10:22 AM

Not sure what is meant by the "game code" being ridiculous to make available. What exactly is the code? Obviously they don't release the algorithms behind game play. But so much is already available for modification. The code behind the UI that accesses the game save database? Writing up a shell to incorporate mods that help with sorting and displaying? As always, resources, man-hours, priorities. These guys are likely all-stars in the gaming development world.

MKG1734 · Yesterday, 11:10 AM

As an example; the civilization series had the entire code available for civilization 4 from day one.
.
Because of that, expert programmers who were not employed by Firaxis but just loved the game were able to create mods to both develop new features [that Firaxis then built upon themselves in later releases] and also to simply fix/shore up the existing code. All these years later it is STILL being actively modded and the result is civilization 4 has a large network of players and is a vastly stronger game than when it was released
.
The same would be true of ootp. It has a dedicated following and programmers who love the game already would be able to shore up and fix it a great deal. Plus --- its free for ootp development.
.
I'm not here to stir the pot. I used to thoroughly enjoy ootp until I realized I enjoyed the idea of what ootp was sold as being only to find out thru many, many, many hours of play testing, tracking, etc., that the core engine simply doesn't work very well. There is no other option currently. And bc of that, it would be nice to see actual improvement of the game. I played for many years in a row before it became clear to me that the actual issues with the game were never touched while a new feature and rosters were added yearly. I was hoping with the new development team that this had changed which is what I inquired about. Since it hasn't the best path forward would be to allow us programmers under the hood to help make the game as great as it could be.

OutS|der · Yesterday, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiskyTango

Not sure what is meant by the "game code" being ridiculous to make available. What exactly is the code? Obviously they don't release the algorithms behind game play. But so much is already available for modification. The code behind the UI that accesses the game save database? Writing up a shell to incorporate mods that help with sorting and displaying? As always, resources, man-hours, priorities. These guys are likely all-stars in the gaming development world.

I'd love for full history to be up for modification. Being able to edit or create our own history would be an amazing addition.
Hopefully one of these years

OS Red · Yesterday, 03:51 PM

Complaining about a current-day game you haven't played or even touched a version of in over 10 years tells me all I need to know about your opinion.

MKG1734 · Yesterday, 09:51 PM

I bought it today. Played it. Its the same engine as 10 years ago. Every test I used to run for the AI had the same result. Zero AI improvement. Sigh ��

Rain King · Yesterday, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mytreds

This is the problem with many, if not all, recurring game titles. Unfortunately for us, the consumers, there is little to no competition to OOTP. So there’s little incentive to change.

IMO, you are looking at this completely wrong.

We, the consumers, are actually very fortunate that OOTP exists.

mr-cpu-geek · Yesterday, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I bought it today. Played it. Its the same engine as 10 years ago. Every test I used to run for the AI had the same result. Zero AI improvement. Sigh ��

Well….I’m sure enjoying the game this year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

05-27-2025, 08:23 PM	#6
MKG1734 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 256 Blog Entries: 1	Very much appreciate your response . It seems not much has really changed in over a decade. . I had asked Markus years ago and didn't get a, "no," so I suspect this is what deal is [and the 10 years with minimal difference [unfortunately] strengthens my case]: . I suspect the games code was not expertly written to start and then layered with changes and changes over time yet still built upon faulty code. As a result the game will never actually work properly and so now there is just cosmetic changes added and some new game options added but the underlying logic remains broken. The only way this game will truly move forward would be to take the time to stop with all the new features and tear down the code and rewrite it so that it functions properly [this is also why the sim speeds crawl with all the options selected] bc the code is likely such an albatross. . If the developers don't want to spend time on a code teardown to make it correct then they SHOULD release the game in open source so that modders can see the code and both spend their time to fix it and also to identify big issues to tell the developers. The game would get a big boost and the developers would get, in essence, free labor. I think many people would help and the game would get much, much better. . I used to have a big presence on here a decade ago so maybe now someone with a big presence currently will try to get Matt Arnold [or whoever] to open the game up to get some real progress made Last edited by MKG1734; 05-27-2025 at 09:36 PM.

05-27-2025, 11:12 PM	#7
Bobfather All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Boston Ma. Posts: 1,526	Think of it this way, you have a friend that you see every day for 10 years, you probably don't notice much of a change. Now, if you haven't seen that friend in 10 years, you will notice all the changes. Asking me to compare the current game to 10 years ago is impossible due to recency bias. The whole ratings system has been reworked, with new 3D stadiums and play. Real rosters from high school on up. And many other things I would say 100s if not 1000s of changes, just look at the topic names on the forum, or the changelog for the latest patch. Is it perfect hell, no. But what is? I think it is by far the best Baseball sim around. __________________ I play out every game—one pitch mode. Last edited by Bobfather; 05-27-2025 at 11:15 PM.

05-27-2025, 11:18 PM	#8
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,469 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	... __________________ Pirates Play Moneyball 1951 to 2008 46,000 views and counting!... Wow, up to 47,000, thank you. Wow, I hadn't checked for weeks. Oct 9 2024 its 79,561. THIS must be a great idea. My consistent detractors didn't show up en masse to argue against it. They didn't show up HERE either. Last edited by Brad K; Yesterday at 07:30 AM.

Yesterday, 09:51 PM	#18
MKG1734 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 256 Blog Entries: 1	I bought it today. Played it. Its the same engine as 10 years ago. Every test I used to run for the AI had the same result. Zero AI improvement. Sigh �� Last edited by MKG1734; Yesterday at 09:56 PM.

05-25-2025, 05:53 PM	#1
MKG1734 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 256 Blog Entries: 1	Long-Time OOTP player Hello all, . I used to play OOTP for many years; starting probably around 2012 thru 2018 or 2019. I have not had time in recent years to play [having a family precludes time], but having a bit more time now and again to begin playing again. . I was what Markus Heinsohn would probably considered a critic of the AI as I posted many times about things that did not seem to work properly and we had many one-on-one DM discussions about fixes, etc. . Here are some of my posts from years ago, and I'd like to know if these issues persist or if they have been fixed: . Additionally; if any OOTP vets would like to inform me of any issues with the current game I should most definitely be made aware of before starting, I would very much appreciate it. . In no particular order: . #1: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...13&postcount=1 . #2: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...hlight=MKG1734 . #3: Without searching for previous posts; does the draft work well over many sim-seasons? As in, does the player distribution seem to work correctly 30 years down the line? Last edited by MKG1734; 05-25-2025 at 06:08 PM.

05-25-2025, 06:13 PM	#2
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,969 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	The AI has improved with every version of the game. It is not, and never will be, perfect.

05-25-2025, 10:44 PM	#4
MKG1734 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 256 Blog Entries: 1	Thank you for taking the time to respond. Sad to think the AI has similar, drastic errors occurring a decade later �� . Is the AI capable of properly promoting players thru the minors now as compared to 10 versions ago? . Does the league become drastic imbalanced thru the draft imbalances after 20 or so sim seasons as it did 10 versions ago?

05-27-2025, 11:36 PM	#9
MKG1734 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 256 Blog Entries: 1	Open source the games code and the game will get immensely better, quickly. It is the only way forward. Ratings system, rosters from HS to MLB, 3D stadiums and play ... all of this is cosmetic candy but if all the same issues persist from a decade ago [they seemingly do, based on the other posts above], then those cosmetic changes are just a new coat of paint over the same broken vehicle. . Since its clear there hasn't been actual, real AI improvement, the only way to get there will be to open source the code and the community will get everyone closer to the product we all actually want

Yesterday, 04:08 AM	#10
mr-cpu-geek Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 103	Why on earth would they open source their code? That is just a ridiculous suggestion. Why would someone who has been away for ten years want to come back and try to stir the pot? You obviously have no other intention. Dude, just, get over it. Buy the game and enjoy it. Or don’t. But don’t come on here with this nonsense. It’s a video game doing a damn good job at simulating real like baseball. Not perfect. Never will be. No video game ever will be. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yesterday, 10:22 AM	#14
WhiskyTango Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2025 Posts: 117	Not sure what is meant by the "game code" being ridiculous to make available. What exactly is the code? Obviously they don't release the algorithms behind game play. But so much is already available for modification. The code behind the UI that accesses the game save database? Writing up a shell to incorporate mods that help with sorting and displaying? As always, resources, man-hours, priorities. These guys are likely all-stars in the gaming development world.

Yesterday, 11:10 AM	#15
MKG1734 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 256 Blog Entries: 1	As an example; the civilization series had the entire code available for civilization 4 from day one. . Because of that, expert programmers who were not employed by Firaxis but just loved the game were able to create mods to both develop new features [that Firaxis then built upon themselves in later releases] and also to simply fix/shore up the existing code. All these years later it is STILL being actively modded and the result is civilization 4 has a large network of players and is a vastly stronger game than when it was released . The same would be true of ootp. It has a dedicated following and programmers who love the game already would be able to shore up and fix it a great deal. Plus --- its free for ootp development. . I'm not here to stir the pot. I used to thoroughly enjoy ootp until I realized I enjoyed the idea of what ootp was sold as being only to find out thru many, many, many hours of play testing, tracking, etc., that the core engine simply doesn't work very well. There is no other option currently. And bc of that, it would be nice to see actual improvement of the game. I played for many years in a row before it became clear to me that the actual issues with the game were never touched while a new feature and rosters were added yearly. I was hoping with the new development team that this had changed which is what I inquired about. Since it hasn't the best path forward would be to allow us programmers under the hood to help make the game as great as it could be.

Yesterday, 03:51 PM	#17
OS Red Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 30	Complaining about a current-day game you haven't played or even touched a version of in over 10 years tells me all I need to know about your opinion.