Some managers have sabermetric lineup preferences, but not strong enough

[noooooo4499]

I've never noticed this before, but it seems like some managers/bench coaches have sabermetric-based lineup preferences:



This is obviously in reference to the sabermetric ideas that the best hitter should generally bat second, and the three-hole is actually not as good as traditionally thought. Also the sometimes it's preferable to let pitcher hit eighth in the lineup rather than ninth.

That's an amazing attention to detail. However it seems like the effect of this preference is very mild. Even with these traits the lineup they pick seems to still put the best player at 3rd, just that they value 2nd slightly more. If a manager has this trait, in my opinion AI lineup picker should completely adopt sabermetric thinking and place the best hitter at 2nd, then 4th/1st and then 3rd instead of always placing the best at 3rd. This is what many teams in MLB today are doing now. It would make the game just that bit more immersive and realistic.

To give an example, for the Yankees, Aaron Boone has the "Likes strong 2nd hitter" traits but he will never actually use Aaron Judge at 2nd. In real life Judge hits way more often at 2nd than at 3rd.

I think when a manager has this trait, the AI logic for lineup construction should just basically swap 2nd and 3rd around when compared to traditional managers.

[mytreds]

Maybe because like in real life, batter order affects less than 1 run per game.

[noooooo4499]

Originally Posted by mytreds

Maybe because like in real life, batter order affects less than 1 run per game.

Yes, although 1 run per game would be massive. That would be 162 runs in a whole season. That would take you from the middle of the table to the top.

Batting order, even between the worst possible lineup (literally setting your lineup backwards and worst manner possible) to the most optimal, is about 0.16 runs per game or 26 runs per season. Swapping your best from 3rd for 2nd gains you about 2 runs per season or 0.01 run per game on average.

You are probably misunderstanding what I'm questioning here. I'm not saying there isn't enough effect on game performance from this trait. I'm saying I'm not convinced the trait itself even does anything. Managers with this trait doesn't seem to actually set up batting order with best at 2nd, it just sets it up exactly the same as a traditional order.

It would be nice for a feature in the game to actually work. It seems like the trait barely makes a difference, as I don't ever see AI managers, even with this trait, set their batting order in a manner similar to the order you see in modern MLB

[noooooo4499]

So after some testing, it seems like AI managers who have the "Likes strong 2nd hitter" trait does generally put the best player at 2nd IF that best player is not a noteworthy slugger. If the best player is a power hitter, AI will pretty much always put him at 3rd or 4th in the order regardless of what the order preference the manager has.

[johndoe8865]

Would be cool if there were a slider for 'Likes hitting pitcher 8th', or 'Likes strong 2nd hitter'. That way we could control how strong that preference is for each manager.

[crashsports1]

This is why I, when using a team like NYY, go into Judge's strategy page and make him always hit 2nd against both RH and LH

[noooooo4499]

Originally Posted by johndoe8865

Would be cool if there were a slider for 'Likes hitting pitcher 8th', or 'Likes strong 2nd hitter'. That way we could control how strong that preference is for each manager.

Great idea that would really cool, and that probably warrants implementation of more strategic tendencies which differ by era. Before the 2010s little to no teams would bat their best player 2nd in the order.

[Chubba2Chedda]

2024 season has 4 managers who like the best hitter batting second. That can't be enough. The game can't work right with the strategy wrong.

[noooooo4499]

The "Likes hitting pitcher 8th" doesn't seem to be very useful either. In a non-DH league a manager with this trait still only has a very small chance of actually putting the pitcher 8th.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by crashsports1

This is why I, when using a team like NYY, go into Judge's strategy page and make him always hit 2nd against both RH and LH

AI easily ignores that unless you lock the players strategy. Though this is only suggested for player controlled teams.

We need separate lock settings, one to lock to that level and one for strategy alone

[fredbeene]

why should the AI behave the same for every team. It would be nice to have randomize buttong. ANd if you are not commissioner, i am not sure you should know every teams strategies. For historical it should not be the same every time unless you want it to be.

[Chubba2Chedda]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

why should the AI behave the same for every team. It would be nice to have randomize buttong. ANd if you are not commissioner, i am not sure you should know every teams strategies. For historical it should not be the same every time unless you want it to be.

Shouldn't managers behave as the real life managers did? Otherwise historical accuracy is gone.

[noooooo4499]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

why should the AI behave the same for every team. It would be nice to have randomize buttong. ANd if you are not commissioner, i am not sure you should know every teams strategies. For historical it should not be the same every time unless you want it to be.

What we're suggesting here is to have more variation in manager batting orders.

It would be nice to have fog of war for manager strategy yeah