5-4-3 Double Plays

[md40022]

Definitely feels like they have been greatly reduced.... maybe even non-existent?


Only recently have I really started paying close attention to it, so I don't have any data at all to back it up. I can say with extreme confidence though, runner on 1st and ground ball to 3B, the 3rd baseman is pretty much exclusively throwing to 1st base in those situations it seems..... Gonna try to start keeping accumulating some stats on this. I play every game though, so it might take a while lol.

[Bobfather]

Originally Posted by md40022

Definitely feels like they have been greatly reduced.... maybe even non-existent?


Only recently have I really started paying close attention to it, so I don't have any data at all to back it up. I can say with extreme confidence though, runner on 1st and ground ball to 3B, the 3rd baseman is pretty much exclusively throwing to 1st base in those situations it seems..... Gonna try to start keeping accumulating some stats on this. I play every game though, so it might take a while lol.

What is your third baseman's double play rating?

[fredbeene]

the game should keep the stats.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Bobfather

What is your third baseman's double play rating?

I feel so stupid. For the longest time I thought the DP rating didn't matter for 3B, only for 2B and SS, but of course it can matter for 3B. It can even matter for 1B. LOL!

Does anyone know if the turn double play rating affects the last catch in a DP as well, or if it's just the first part it helps? There isn't much that the wiki says on the topic. I usually only think of the DP as the interaction between SS and 2B in, for example, a 6-4-3 or 4-6-3, but I suppose it might be impacting the last catch too. If I had to guess, however, I'd say no, it probably doesn't.

FWIW, I asked ChatGPT, "What are the % of double plays involving each position in MLB?" and it said:

There isn’t really an official Major League Baseball stat page that publishes “what percentage of all double plays involve each position,” at least not in a clean league-wide historical breakdown. Most public stats track *team* double plays or specific combinations (6-4-3, 4-6-3, etc.), rather than positional shares. ([Wikipedia][1])

That said, based on historical scoring data and the prevalence of standard ground-ball double plays, the involvement rate by position is approximately:

| Position | Approx. share of MLB double plays involving that position | Why |
| -------- | --------------------------------------------------------: | ------------------------------------------ |
| 2B | ~75–85% | Pivot man on most traditional DPs |
| SS | ~75–85% | Other half of the middle-infield pivot |
| 1B | ~70–80% | Usually records the second out |
| 3B | ~10–15% | Starts some 5-4-3 DPs |
| P | ~5–10% | Comebackers and 1-6-3 type plays |
| C | ~3–8% | Strike-’em-out/throw-’em-out or bunt plays |
| OF | <5% | Usually line-drive or assist double plays |

The most common double-play combinations are generally believed to be:

1. **6-4-3** (SS → 2B → 1B)
2. **4-6-3** (2B → SS → 1B)

Those two alone probably account for roughly 70%+ of all standard infield double plays in modern MLB.

A few other notable ones:

| DP Combination | Meaning | Approx. frequency |
| -------------- | ------------------------- | ----------------------------: |
| 5-4-3 | 3B starts it | Common but much less frequent |
| 3-6-3 | 1B starts it himself | Occasional |
| 1-6-3 | Pitcher fields comebacker | Rare |
| 2-6 / 2-4-3 | Catcher initiated | Rare |

So if you’re looking at *overall involvement*, the real answer is basically:

* **2B and SS dominate**
* **1B is involved almost as often**
* everyone else trails far behind

The reason is simple geometry: most double plays are ground balls hit somewhere up the middle with a force at second.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double...ce=chatgpt.com "Double play"

So if those numbers are accurate, it really doesn't matter that much for 3B after all (they're only involved 10-15% of the time), but it could of course matter a whole lot if it impacts the 1B's catch (70-80%).

[jberg57]

I play a lot of games. I rarely see a 5-4-3 dp.

I also never see a guy thrown out at second from the outfield.

[Sweed]

My impression of v27 is it is more important to use the "double play" setting while playing out games. Pre v27 I could have my IF at "normal" and turn plenty of DP's. With the same fielders, in v27, I was finding myself in the bottom quarter of the league in DP's. All types of DP's seemed low, be it 5-4-3, 6-4-3 or 4-6-3. Using the DP setting feels like it has me catching up and turning DP's at an acceptable rate for all types of DP's.

FWIW I know I was in the bottom quarter by looking at the actual data. The rest is just my impression from playing out games and not from keeping track.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by jberg57

I play a lot of games. I rarely see a 5-4-3 dp.

I also never see a guy thrown out at second from the outfield.

Somehow all the outfield assists at second are coded to go back to the catcher before going to second.

[kriscolic]

Originally Posted by jberg57

I play a lot of games. I rarely see a 5-4-3 dp.

I also never see a guy thrown out at second from the outfield.

Just finished a 2026 standard game and, yes to this. I play out every game and, though memory is admittedly not the most reliable thing, I would agree with this 100%.

There are (probably) thousands of other game elements that can 'feel off' to the observer but that cannot be studied within the game. There is no way to determine the number of 5-4-3 double plays or baserunner kills at 2B across a league/season. My question is simple: why not?

[kriscolic]

Originally Posted by Sweed

My impression of v27 is it is more important to use the "double play" setting while playing out games. Pre v27 I could have my IF at "normal" and turn plenty of DP's. With the same fielders, in v27, I was finding myself in the bottom quarter of the league in DP's. All types of DP's seemed low, be it 5-4-3, 6-4-3 or 4-6-3. Using the DP setting feels like it has me catching up and turning DP's at an acceptable rate for all types of DP's.

FWIW I know I was in the bottom quarter by looking at the actual data. The rest is just my impression from playing out games and not from keeping track.

I agree. I play out every game AB by AB and set the infield to 'double play depth' at every single opportunity. Still seems like DP's are few and far between. Could be my infielders, I guess, but I don't think so. Just played out a 2026 Mets season with Baty/Lindor/Semien on the infield.

I wish I could see the data in-game, as always. See my previous comment.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kriscolic

I agree. I play out every game AB by AB and set the infield to 'double play depth' at every single opportunity. Still seems like DP's are few and far between. Could be my infielders, I guess, but I don't think so. Just played out a 2026 Mets season with Baty/Lindor/Semien on the infield.

I wish I could see the data in-game, as always. See my previous comment.

Best you can do is see total DP's by team. When I wrote my post I said I was in the bottom quarter of the league in DP's (IIRC I was either 21st or 22nd). I had also just begun to start using the DP option when in the field as opposed to the normal setting I had used in v26 and before. Using the DP setting has me now up to 14th in the league.

I have not been keeping track but I would guess I have played around 70 games using "normal" and 35 games using "double play" setting. If not exactly 2 to 1 it has to be very close. So using DP setting in half as many games has moved me up from bottom quarter of the league to the middle. Have to believe if I had used the DP setting all season I'd be near the top or top of the league.

I import my game from version to version so the team I am playing with in v27 is the same infield players I had in my last season in v26. In v26 I led the league in DP's with a 159. I'd say that at least supports my idea that something changed between 26 and 27, ie the DP setting is now necessary in 27 to turn a "realistic" number of DP's. I actually think this is a good thing. It almost felt like cheating in previous versions when "normal" seemed to turn as many DP's as the actual DP setting.

[Highlander]

Just checked my Mets sim (I'm in 2027) and I'm in the top 10 for double plays right now at the end of July. I've had a mix of Bichette/Baty at 3rd, Lindor/Bichette at SS (Lindor was hurt for awhile), Semien at 2B and Polanco at 1B. I get a decent number of 5-4-3 based on observation...not sure if it matches real life or not, but they definitely happen. The one thing I don't remember seeing through a little over a season and a half of playing out every game is the first baseman getting the out at 1st "first" and then throwing to 2nd for the tag. Those plays don't happen a lot in real life either, but it seems like I'd see it tried every so often.

[Pelican]

When I play games out, I too frequently use the DP setting for the defense. I tend to limit it to the more obvious situations, like a slow batter. And I'll use it more with good defenders at SS and 2B.

What I wonder about - and what should happen - is that my infielders will allow a few more hits in the holes, because they are cheating toward the 2B bag for the DP. But I'm not sure the game "penalizes" my use of the DP setting in this way. Onscreen the graphics shows the SS and 2B edging closer to the 2B bag, as soon as I choose the DP defensive setting.

In other words, this should work much like the risk of bringing the IF in to cut off a play at the plate. Those infielders will have less range on hard-hit balls that are not hit at them. There should be some singles that would have been groundouts with the infield back.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Pelican

When I play games out, I too frequently use the DP setting for the defense. I tend to limit it to the more obvious situations, like a slow batter. And I'll use it more with good defenders at SS and 2B.

What I wonder about - and what should happen - is that my infielders will allow a few more hits in the holes, because they are cheating toward the 2B bag for the DP. But I'm not sure the game "penalizes" my use of the DP setting in this way. Onscreen the graphics shows the SS and 2B edging closer to the 2B bag, as soon as I choose the DP defensive setting.

In other words, this should work much like the risk of bringing the IF in to cut off a play at the plate. Those infielders will have less range on hard-hit balls that are not hit at them. There should be some singles that would have been groundouts with the infield back.

Having played OOTP for over 20 years I do believe this is what happens. Have I run any tests? No, but playing out all of my games over all of those years I'll stick with it does. Anytime I set up for a DP I do so "knowing" there could be a cost.

Pure speculation...
I do think a bug snuck in at some time that made turning DP's too easy when using "normal" or shifting the IF left or right. I'd say around v23 or v24 I started using the DP setting less because it felt like I was turning enough DP's without using it, and I wasn't being penalized by giving extra hits that came with the DP setting. Notice above I led the league in DP's in v26 and I rarely used the DP setting. It feels to me like v27 has returned us to a way the game used to work.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by md40022

Definitely feels like they have been greatly reduced.... maybe even non-existent?


Only recently have I really started paying close attention to it, so I don't have any data at all to back it up. I can say with extreme confidence though, runner on 1st and ground ball to 3B, the 3rd baseman is pretty much exclusively throwing to 1st base in those situations it seems..... Gonna try to start keeping accumulating some stats on this. I play every game though, so it might take a while lol.

you would be better off requesting the devs add the ability to track the stats instead of some manual games you play out.
I get plenty of 5-4-3. I have no data to back it up because you can't generate a report from the game