Thread for player identification in team photos

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Thanks for the substantial information, could you clarify which McVey is which as there are 2 McVey's listed on the roster and in your spreadsheet extraction.

Craig Brown's site details the uniform types and links it with individual players who were with the team at the start of the season, the information is dated from the Sporting Life edition of April 18th. It can be used as verification for some of the information you provided. There does appear to be one new name, Kelly in the extraction but only one Handiboe. I believe the manager Arnold's first name is Frank and that he apparently umpired 1 game in the American Association in 1889.

Sorry, I didn't notice the two McVeys when I cut and pasted the list. Carl McVey was with the club from the start of the season through June. George McVey joined the club in August and was with the club through mid-September.

One of the Handiboes, I don't recall which, was signed later in the spring than the other, at the same time as Neale (if I recall the articles I read last night). I think it was the one who pitches, whichever that is, because the headline was about two new pitchers.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I had thought that the player in the back row, far left, was Fred Mann. He joined the team in late summer, after the Southern League (where he had been playing) folded. I do not have suggested IDs for any of the others.

Edited to add: I must admit that the player back row, far left, could also be Rourke or O'Brien. IDs are difficult when so many players have similar ethnic backgrounds and have similar mustaches.

Mann / Back Row Far Left / Rourke / O'Brien

I was looking at the back left as Owen Wilson. Here is the comparison. The Wilson photo was from the spring with Davenport.

I was looking at the guy on the far right as Sommers. Again, a comparison.

Those two would put the photo definitively at the back end of the season.

There is a similarity between Arnold and the guy in the suit, at least in the hairline. The mustache makes a direct comparison difficult for me.

Amended: Looking at the construction of the roster over time, I'm having difficulty believing this is a late season photo. It just doesn't seem like there were enough players on the club then. That makes my suggestions highly unlikely.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by prewinter

I was looking at the back left as Owen Wilson. Here is the comparison. The Wilson photo was from the spring with Davenport.

I was looking at the guy on the far right as Sommers. Again, a comparison.

Those two would put the photo definitively at the back end of the season.

There is a similarity between Arnold and the guy in the suit, at least in the hairline. The mustache makes a direct comparison difficult for me.

Those look like very good matches to me. I like George McVey as the player with the mustache in the middle row 2nd from the right as well.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by prewinter

I was looking at the back left as Owen Wilson. Here is the comparison. The Wilson photo was from the spring with Davenport.

I was looking at the guy on the far right as Sommers. Again, a comparison.

Those two would put the photo definitively at the back end of the season.

There is a similarity between Arnold and the guy in the suit, at least in the hairline. The mustache makes a direct comparison difficult for me.

Amended: Looking at the construction of the roster over time, I'm having difficulty believing this is a late season photo. It just doesn't seem like there were enough players on the club then. That makes my suggestions highly unlikely.

Thanks for updating the player time analysis with their given names. I believe you are referring to Owen Williams who according to the player time schedule joined the team on 10th September. Is there any flexibility in that date as it does appear to be in conflict with Buck West's departure from the team which appears to have been on August 19. In that player schedule there is a '&C' after West's date. Do you know what the "&C" means. The same "&C" also appears after Fred Mann's departure date.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Thanks for updating the player time analysis with their given names. I believe you are referring to Owen Williams who according to the player time schedule joined the team on 10th September. Is there any flexibility in that date as it does appear to be in conflict with Buck West's departure from the team which appears to have been on August 19. In that player schedule there is a '&C' after West's date. Do you know what the "&C" means. The same "&C" also appears after Fred Mann's departure date.

I think the &C means captain, but I don't know for sure. I did not compile the data from which I got the dates. After Curry departed, there was a gap before Arnold took over. West ran the club during that spell, according to one note I found. Maybe Mann also was a captain during that period?

Buck West played his first game with Lima on August 22 after his release from Columbus, so there is no flexibility there. There was a note in the Columbus Dispatch on September 10, 1888 that stated Dundon was released and "a man named Williams signed to play right field." The Columbus Evening Dispatch reported on September 19 that Mann and McVey were released.

I amended my identification to note that I couldn't see any way they could be right (Williams and Sommers) and still have enough players on the club. I think the photo has to be from early in the season for that reason.

[cinemaodyssey]

I'm still working with the idea that this is an early season photo showing off their brand-new uniforms. I've attached below what I think are the best matches to players known to be on the early season roster.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I'm still working with the idea that this is an early season photo showing off their brand-new uniforms. I've attached below what I think are the best matches to players known to be on the early season roster.

I believe it is plausible that the purpose of the photo was to show off the new uniforms as you propose.

I have taken the 4 suggested identifications plus the identification of Buck West and matched their supposed uniforms to the colors detailed by Craig Brown as identified in the April 1888 Sporting Life.

Buck West's uniform is stated as Maroon & Light Brown
Jerry O'Brien - Red & White
Carl McVey - Light Blue & Dark Blue
Billy Rourke - White and Navy Blue
John Munyan - Dark Blue & Black

Sadly only 2 of the above West and Rourke would appear to match their uniform color. A subjective assessment by looking at uniforms only, O'Brien would appear to best match with the player in the middle row third from right, next to West. John Munyan the player middle row left, attached is a second exemplar for Munyan. Carl McVey top row second from right.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

I believe it is plausible that the purpose of the photo was to show off the new uniforms as you propose.

I have taken the 4 suggested identifications plus the identification of Buck West and matched their supposed uniforms to the colors detailed by Craig Brown as identified in the April 1888 Sporting Life.

Buck West's uniform is stated as Maroon & Light Brown
Jerry O'Brien - Red & White
Carl McVey - Light Blue & Dark Blue
Billy Rourke - White and Navy Blue
John Munyan - Dark Blue & Black

Sadly only 2 of the above West and Rourke would appear to match their uniform color. A subjective assessment by looking at uniforms only, O'Brien would appear to best match with the player in the middle row third from right, next to West. John Munyan the player middle row left, attached is a second exemplar for Munyan. Carl McVey top row second from right.

I think Munyan could be in the top row, rather than McVey:

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I think Munyan could be in the top row, rather than McVey:

Yes, very possibly. Now we need to find an alternate placement for McVey. Based on his image I thought the player on the ground on the right could be a match. I noticed a contraption in this player's location within the image and wondered what it could be. The only thought that came to mind was an early example of a catcher's mask. If so Munyan could be located in this placement within the image, however two other candidates would be Pike and Smith both also listed as catcher's. There again that would suggest 3 catcher uniforms within the photo. So that placement now reserved for a catcher an alternative location for McVey is needed, suggestion - located in the middle row second from right.

Then remembering back to Craig Brown's site that suggested it would be useful if someone attempted to color the famous positional uniforms of 1882 to see how they came to life. That in mind let's see what is revealed if that process was applied to this Columbus team photo, only to discover that prewinter was thinking on exactly the same lines.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Yes, very possibly. Now we need to find an alternate placement for McVey. Based on his image I thought the player on the ground on the right could be a match. I noticed a contraption in this player's location within the image and wondered what it could be. The only thought that came to mind was an early example of a catcher's mask. If so Munyan could be located in this placement within the image, however two other candidates would be Pike and Smith both also listed as catcher's. There again that would suggest 3 catcher uniforms within the photo. So that placement now reserved for a catcher an alternative location for McVey is needed, suggestion - located in the middle row second from right.

The catchers' uniforms were reportedly dark blue and black, and there are only two all-dar uniforms in the photo, but three players listed as catchers in that early spring list in the papers. I won't say that is where I gave up looking at uniform colors, but it certainly throws a wrench into using them to understand who is whom.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by prewinter

The catchers' uniforms were reportedly dark blue and black, and there are only two all-dar uniforms in the photo, but three players listed as catchers in that early spring list in the papers. I won't say that is where I gave up looking at uniform colors, but it certainly throws a wrench into using them to understand who is whom.

Yes, and the first baseman uniform you would also expect to be all-dark. However, the uniform where the catcher's mask is located clearly does not enter the all-dark uniform category , so maybe the player located in that location was one of three catchers but who also played an additional position.

Looking at career statistics in terms of games played Munyan played 195 games as a catcher with next most games played being as an outfielder 95. Smith 114 games as a catcher with next most games played being 15 as an outfielder. Pike played 63 games as a catcher with next most games played being 18 as a right fielder. Proportionally the figures would suggest that the player most likely to be represented in a non-catcher's uniform would be Munyan.

You could submit an argument that there are potentially 3 all-dark uniforms, located top row left, top row second from right and middle row left. The least dark you would equate to the first baseman's uniform, raising the suggestion that Hamilton is the player seated left in the middle row with 2 catchers in the top row.

[prewinter]

This photo was posted on net54baseball with a collection of other photos, which reportedly belonged to Ice Box Chamberlain. (He is in all of them, which tracks.) It is of the 1887 Louisville club, probably taken in the spring. Identifications were make by RUKen. I'm posting it here so I can find it in the future. All of the players were identified as on the club in the Louisville Courier-Journal in April.

(I think there is some distortion in the scan, as some of the players' heads seem too wide. There are zoomed in scans in the thread on net54baseball.)

The photos posted there also include one of the Hamilton Clippers of 1885 and the Crandall club (of Buffalo, NY) of 1889.

Identifications courtesy of RUKen:
Top Row (L-R): Amos Cross, Jimmy "Chicken" Wolf, Paul Cook, John Kerins, Lave Cross, Hub Collins, Phil Reccius.
Middle Row (L-R): Pete Browning, William Veach, Guy Hecker, John Kelly, Tom "Toad" Ramsey, Elton Chamberlain, Joe Werrick.
Bottom Row (L-R): Reddy Mack, Joe Neale, Bill White.

Amended 8/28/2024: Based on discussions below and offline, the assignments have been changed. These changes are reflected above, and included moving Bill White to front row right, Phil Reccius to back row right, and Elton Chamberlain to middle row, second from the right, indicated in red above.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by prewinter

Identifications courtesy of RUKen:
Top Row (L-R): Amos Cross, Jimmy "Chicken" Wolf, Paul Cook, John Kerins, Lave Cross, Hub Collins, Elton Chamberlain.
Middle Row (L-R): Pete Browning, William Veach, Guy Hecker, John Kelly, Tom "Toad" Ramsey, Bill White, Joe Werrick.
Bottom Row (L-R): Reddy Mack, Joe Neale, Phil Reccius.

I appreciate the acknowledgement for the IDs, but I had not provided a name for the player on the bottom row, far right. I do not think that he looks like Phil Reccius. I acknowledge that Reccius is the only other player named on the roster dated April 3rd, 1887, but I think that someone else may have been with the team later that spring long enough to be assigned a uniform.

Reccius / Bottom Row Far Right

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I appreciate the acknowledgement for the IDs, but I had not provided a name for the player on the bottom row, far right. I do not think that he looks like Phil Reccius. I acknowledge that Reccius is the only other player named on the roster dated April 3rd, 1887, but I think that someone else may have been with the team later that spring long enough to be assigned a uniform.

Reccius / Bottom Row Far Right

Sometimes players like to position themselves in a position within a team photo that is familiar to them. Joe Neale is on the ground in the middle in the Louisville photo, could it be him in the same, felis caring, position in the Columbus image?

However, in the box score of the Columbus game from April 22nd the pitcher is Joe Neale. Re-examining the Columbus team photo 3 players are shown with a ball in hand, often symbolic of a pitcher. These are the players standing top row right and the players on the ground left and right. Superficially all 3 appear to be wearing a similar uniform. Confusingly the player on the ground right is also the apparent owner of a catcher's mask. Additionally, the re-examination also reveals the presence of a second catcher's mask on the thigh of the player seated in the middle row third from right, who again does not appear to be wearing a dark uniform as would be expected for a catcher. There is no evidence that any of the 3 catcher's have a significant background in pitching.

It does appear that this image was well orchestrated in terms of it's appearance. Also worthy of mention is the presence of 2 notable gloves in the vicinity of the 2 players on the right of the image on the ground. Although the catcher's mask appears closest to the player on the right on the ground, could it be because the player in the middle was otherwise engaged with the mascot? Career records indicate that in respect of the 3 catchers, 2 began their career's in 1884 but Pike at 22 , possibly the youngest, began his in 1887. We also know that Pike is listed at 5'8" and 170.

The Columbus team photo shows 15 individuals but the Sporting Life extract only identifies 14. Perhaps, the most surprising omission is Backer who appears as the pitcher on the Columbus box score of April 24, 1888. The box scores reveal that the 3 pitchers are likely to be Handiboe, Neale and Backer.

Images left to right, Columbus player ground middle, 3 images of Joe Neale and Columbus player ground left.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by prewinter

This photo was posted on net54baseball with a collection of other photos, which reportedly belonged to Ice Box Chamberlain. (He is in all of them, which tracks.) It is of the 1887 Louisville club, probably taken in the spring. Identifications were make by RUKen. I'm posting it here so I can find it in the future. All of the players were identified as on the club in the Louisville Courier-Journal in April.

(I think there is some distortion in the scan, as some of the players' heads seem too wide. There are zoomed in scans in the thread on net54baseball.)

The photos posted there also include one of the Hamilton Clippers of 1885 and the Crandall club (of Buffalo, NY) of 1889.

Identifications courtesy of RUKen:
Top Row (L-R): Amos Cross, Jimmy "Chicken" Wolf, Paul Cook, John Kerins, Lave Cross, Hub Collins, Elton Chamberlain.
Middle Row (L-R): Pete Browning, William Veach, Guy Hecker, John Kelly, Tom "Toad" Ramsey, Bill White, Joe Werrick.
Bottom Row (L-R): Reddy Mack, Joe Neale, Phil Reccius.

Is there any possibility that Joe Strauss, could be in the image, third from left, and Hecker re-positioned?

Any explanation for the caps shown in the image as they do not appear to match the uniform caps previously documented?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Is there any possibility that Joe Strauss, could be in the image, third from left, and Hecker re-positioned?

Any explanation for the caps shown in the image as they do not appear to match the uniform caps previously documented?

Joe Strauss had finished the previous season with Brooklyn; he was no longer under contract with Louisville.

The only written documentation about the caps (as referenced by TOOG) is that they were striped; it was unclear which way the stripes ran. There have been no previous photos seen of players on the 1887 Louisville club.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Is there any possibility that Joe Strauss, could be in the image, third from left, and Hecker re-positioned?

Any explanation for the caps shown in the image as they do not appear to match the uniform caps previously documented?

Joe Strauss was already connected with Milwaukee in February of 1887, so there is little reason to believe he would be in uniform with Louisville in the spring, even if he were practicing with the club prior to heading to Milwaukee.

I was wondering about the caps myself. Just skimming the Threads of Our Game website, it seems there is a lot of contradictory descriptions of the uniform, and no real photographic evidence. The description on that site from the opening day described them as red and black striped, which doesn't match the photo. Did clubs have home and away uniforms then, such that there might be two different style caps?

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I appreciate the acknowledgement for the IDs, but I had not provided a name for the player on the bottom row, far right. I do not think that he looks like Phil Reccius. I acknowledge that Reccius is the only other player named on the roster dated April 3rd, 1887, but I think that someone else may have been with the team later that spring long enough to be assigned a uniform.

Reccius / Bottom Row Far Right

You are correct: I added the Reccius identification. I amended the post above to note that.

Reccius was with the club until mid-May. If the photo was taken at the start of the season, it seems odd that he wouldn't be in it. I haven't done a dive into the roster to see how it changed after that point.

Update: Bill White did not arrive in Louisville until April 19, per the Courier-Journal that afternoon. He had not signed a contract at that point. This was one day after the first game of the season. The photo must have been taken after this point.

The original post on net54baseball was a photo of the photo, taken at an angle. I think this distorted some of the perspective, such that the player's faces look wider than they were. If you squeeze the photo slightly, you get a better match (IMO).

For what it is worth, all of the other IDs look good to me.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by prewinter

I was wondering about the caps myself. Just skimming the Threads of Our Game website, it seems there is a lot of contradictory descriptions of the uniform, and no real photographic evidence. The description on that site from the opening day described them as red and black striped, which doesn't match the photo. Did clubs have home and away uniforms then, such that there might be two different style caps?

Baseball clubs often had more than one uniform, but they weren't strictly designated as home and away. Sometimes, they debuted a new uniform during the season. There could certainly be multiple styles of caps.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by prewinter

You are correct: I added the Reccius identification. I amended the post above to note that.

Reccius was with the club until mid-May. If the photo was taken at the start of the season, it seems odd that he wouldn't be in it. I haven't done a dive into the roster to see how it changed after that point.

The original post on net54baseball was a photo of the photo, taken at an angle. I think this distorted some of the perspective, such that the player's faces look wider than they were. If you squeeze the photo slightly, you get a better match (IMO).

For what it is worth, all of the other IDs look good to me.

Thanks. I agree that Reccius ought to be in the image, but there are plenty of old team photos that are missing a player who is known to have been on the roster, and sometimes there are players who get into a group picture because they are training with the team, but never get into a game. In the images that I've seen of him, Reccius appears to have brown hair; the player on the bottom right of the 1887 Louisville photo appears to me to be blond, and his hair is combed differently.

(I'm going to be busy, so I won't be posting again for a while.)