Fictional Players Within A Historical Setting Does Not Work

[pbar25]

very troubling.
Put me down as a beta tester for OOTP11. I just don't understand how I'm able to come across such blatant issues. I realize there are 1,000,000 different factors and settings. But this one is basic, and it doesn't work.
I know some of the beta testers, and you guys rock.

But put fictional players into a historical setting with recalc on so all of the real players play historically. Can you put fictional players into that setting with everything working properly? No, you can't.

Because all fictional outfielders are given severe drops towards their defense like clock work every season until they are nothing players with regards to defense......0's & 1's.
Simply put, fictional players cannot play within a historical league that has recalc on. It doesn't work.

Did anybody try to play with fictional players within a historical setting before this game was sold to me? Not a happy customer.

Paco Rodriguez 1918


Paco Rodriguez 1921


Portland Beavers 1921
Here are the 1921 Portland Beavers. They are about to be promoted into the historical league that has recalc on. Below are all their defensive ratings.
Thing we are looking at is the outfield defensive ratings in the lower right.
Lu Blue is their only 'real' outfielder. Lets see what happens after simming one season.


And one year later.........
The majority of their fictional outfielders have been released and replaced with real players......since the fictional players can no longer play defense.
Canseco, Rivera, Osario are the fictional outfielders they have held onto -- all with great gloves, reduced to nothing in one season.
When I turn recalc off, it doesn't happen.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by pbar25

Put me down as a beta tester for OOTP11. I just don't understand how I'm able to come across such blatant issues.

Finally, the wait is over. The first beta-bash. *relief*

Seriously, we'll have a look. Do a couple of quick run throughs and get back at you.

Couple of the mandatories: Are you using the latest 10.2.16 patch? And it this reproducible? If so, could you lay out exactly how you create the league so we can give it a go asap?

Thanks for your patience and anticipated prompt response.

[pbar25]

Originally Posted by endgame

Finally, the wait is over. The first beta-bash. *relief*

I cringed when I wrote it and surprised I hit post.......but I just couldn't stop myself.....I'm very sorry to all.
If I didn't love the game and knew I'd be purchasing up until OOTPXMD I wouldn't spend time trying to fix it.

I have not patched yet today, but did not see the issue listed.
I'll patch up and keep simming to see what happens, and attempt my steps down below.
Definitely can be reproduced.

Create two leagues, both historical - any year before 1990 which is what I always do. (In the past this is how I have always done it.)

-Keep one as the historical league.
-Delete all 'real players' out of the other league, then fill it with fictional players, randomize cities/team names.
-check all historical boxes outside of expansion in both leagues.
-In the 'real player' league keep 3 year recalc on. In the fictional league keep recalc off. Don't double weight or retire according to history in any league.
-import historical rookies into the 'real' league assigned to their own teams.
-uncheck historical rookies in the fictional league, and schedule an amateur draft of fictional players.
-sim one season
-on the first day of preseason (2/13 or so), move the champion fictional team into the historical league -- then move the last place team out of the historical league into the fictional league. Regenerate schedules.
-sim one season

All fictional outfielders will no longer be able to play defense.

[endgame]

Great! Thanks for the quick response and taking the time to point out the problem. If no one gets a chance any earlier, I'll have a go at it late this evening, but I'm relatively new to historical environments.

Thanks for your love of the game, as well. Please do report your results with 10.2.16, just in case.

[pbar25]

1981 - with the new patch

San Francisco Mets (Champions of a fictional league)
This is a new league following the exact steps above, using the in-game database.

Solid defensive team.



After one season within the historical league that has recalc on:



Here's Myles Moore, last season's CF with the 10 range, no longer with any team. The same thing happened to all of those OF's. Only Hu remains on the team even though he can't play defense anymore. Infielders are not reduced to zero but all seem to move to 5's across the board (see Meza below or Stan Bradley. Catchers become 0's. All players that still display solid ratings are historical 'real' players. No players have their hittings skills effected.

When fictional players are placed within a historical setting that has recalc on, their defense self destructs on the first recalc. Maybe they are simply not allowed to be in that environment?

But then that means you can't really put the 'real' Babe Ruth up against fictional players?







The following season I did the same thing, but shut recalc off in the historical league. The Athletics were the new fictional team that entered the league through promotion.




Following a full season with recalc off, all players remain in good shape and can play within the league just fine. Maldonado & Emery are two fictional players that stand out.

[endgame]

Logged as BZ #3314

You put enough effort to demonstrate it can be reproduced. I'll still try to get a look later and ask those more knowledgeable to take a look as well. For now, at least the thread has been linked for Markus to review when he's able.

Thanks, again.

[pbar25]

sorry for spouting off. generally well mannered, but when you spend hours attempting to fix something...patience wears thin.

[StyxNCa]

Happens with recalc off for me. I don't use recalc in my league because they are all fictional players and have no real life stats to base anything on but my defensive ratings are all tanked.

[SteveP]

I just ran a test with my mixed historical/fictional league. Definitely something broken there. There are several fielding related problems in OOTP10, so I guess this can be added to the list.

[echolodge]

I'm sure this is not the optimal answer or even an answer since I haven't seen what happens in future seasons (I love to tinker slowly in my created leagues), but until a fix is found you may want to try to this:

Use the player editor on exisiting real players on historical teams to create fictional players with new names and adjusted ratings. This is definitely a slow, tedious way to do it, but that's what I have been doing. See what happens then in subseqeunt seasons. Of course, you can edit existing historical teams too to create fictional clubs. I end up with a fictional team within a historical league with a mix of historical players and fictional players. Just a thought. See what recal would do to such a player (real player edited with new name etc.)

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by echolodge

I'm sure this is not the optimal answer or even an answer since I haven't seen what happens in future seasons (I love to tinker slowly in my created leagues), but until a fix is found you may want to try to this:

Use the player editor on exisiting real players on historical teams to create fictional players with new names and adjusted ratings. This is definitely a slow, tedious way to do it, but that's what I have been doing. See what happens then in subseqeunt seasons. Of course, you can edit existing historical teams too to create fictional clubs. I end up with a fictional team within a historical league with a mix of historical players and fictional players. Just a thought. See what recal would do to such a player (real player edited with new name etc.)

The game tells who is a "real" player from who is a "fictional" player, by player ID #. You could change the name of a real player without affecting the ability of the game engine to know he is someone with real stats. I do this from time-to-time to deal with real players who have duplicate names for using photos. So if you want to convert real players to fictional, you have to give them new player ID #s. You could do this by exporting the roster, making the changes, the re-importing.

[echolodge]

Originally Posted by SteveP

The game tells who is a "real" player from who is a "fictional" player, by player ID #. You could change the name of a real player without affecting the ability of the game engine to know he is someone with real stats. I do this from time-to-time to deal with real players who have duplicate names for using photos. So if you want to convert real players to fictional, you have to give them new player ID #s. You could do this by exporting the roster, making the changes, the re-importing.

Thanks for the insight. I didn't realize that. However, wouldn't tinkering with a renamed historical player's ability ratings also affect his performance? Or is performance real-stat driven (and his accumulated real stats will affect his future development)? I suppose reimporting the players allows you to put them on any desired team, correct?

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by echolodge

Thanks for the insight. I didn't realize that. However, wouldn't tinkering with a renamed historical player's ability ratings also affect his performance? Or is performance real-stat driven (and his accumulated real stats will affect his future development)? I suppose reimporting the players allows you to put them on any desired team, correct?

A player performs according to his ratings, period. The source of the ratings, or how they might be manipulated by a gamer, is what might create variations. But ultimately, the game engine looks at those ratings to determine what the probability of a given event might be.

The last question I didn't understand. There are many ways to put players on teams you want them to be on, especially if you are a commissioner.

[StyxNCa]

There have been several posts about the problem, particularly the destruction of fielding ratings after a season, but so for I have seen none of those threads put into the "logged" area for some reason. It's a major problem. I can not continue with my historical/fictional league now.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

There have been several posts about the problem, particularly the destruction of fielding ratings after a season, but so for I have seen none of those threads put into the "logged" area for some reason. It's a major problem. I can not continue with my historical/fictional league now.

I know the problem of recalc messing up fictional players has been reported as a bug, but the BZ may not have gotten into the logged list in Technical. If so, that's an oversight, but not an indication of priority for fixing. The problem right now is that bug fixing is on hold and I for one don't know when that will resume. I think the only work-around in the near-term would be to go to no-recalc and slow things down in a league, and then go back to re-calc after a fix comes out. A few players might get a ratings jolt in one direction or another, but that might be an acceptable situation. OOTPers who prefer fast sims thru multiple seasons, with recalc, are stuck for the time being, I think.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by SteveP

I know the problem of recalc messing up fictional players has been reported as a bug, but the BZ may not have gotten into the logged list in Technical. If so, that's an oversight, but not an indication of priority for fixing. The problem right now is that bug fixing is on hold and I for one don't know when that will resume. I think the only work-around in the near-term would be to go to no-recalc and slow things down in a league, and then go back to re-calc after a fix comes out. A few players might get a ratings jolt in one direction or another, but that might be an acceptable situation. OOTPers who prefer fast sims thru multiple seasons, with recalc, are stuck for the time being, I think.

Well it's a bit late to do that since all the ratings are already trashed. I guess this league is no longer any good.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Well it's a bit late to do that since all the ratings are already trashed. I guess this league is no longer any good.

Well, realistically, any patch would only prevent future problems from occurring, not repairing any damage that has already occurred.

I would have suggested some possible fixes that involve exporting your roster. However, I am leery of that right now, because I've had problems (which have been reported as a possible bug) with exporting/importing rosters. So, the only thing I could think to do would be to go in as commissioner and delete the fictional players one-by-one, then you could add a new batch of fictionals to fill the gaps. Tedious, but it's an idea.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by SteveP

Well, realistically, any patch would only prevent future problems from occurring, not repairing any damage that has already occurred.

I would have suggested some possible fixes that involve exporting your roster. However, I am leery of that right now, because I've had problems (which have been reported as a possible bug) with exporting/importing rosters. So, the only thing I could think to do would be to go in as commissioner and delete the fictional players one-by-one, then you could add a new batch of fictionals to fill the gaps. Tedious, but it's an idea.

Well I did save the league before the ratings on their profile page trashed, but in the edit section all the ratings are at 0 for catchers so I could go thru and manually fix it I reckon, but what a time consuming thing that would be. The good part would be that by then maybe a fix would be out. The question I would have then would be is this just a one time occurrence or will it happen again after the next season?

The problem I've had with export/import is the L/R splits on the profile page disappear but that wouldn't be an issue now since I am between seasons. What other issues have you had?

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

The problem I've had with export/import is the L/R splits on the profile page disappear but that wouldn't be an issue now since I am between seasons. What other issues have you had?

See this: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-recently.html

I'm still trying to find out if others have seen this. It happens to me every time I try it.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by SteveP

See this: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-recently.html

I'm still trying to find out if others have seen this. It happens to me every time I try it.

BTW, I don't have recalc turned on. Not for individuals. I do have it set to adjust league totals for accuracy though.