Weird Defensive Rating

[Rosco Peabody]

I can't figure out why it won't give me a rating for the guy as a third basemen. He was a pitcher I drafted early on in my inaugural draft and he really stunk, but I decided to make him into a position player in my minor leagues because he could hit a little bit.

I wanted to make him a 3B because he had a good arm, so I boosted his defensive ratings a little bit. However, he still didn't register any 3Bman ratings.

I decided to further tweak it and max out his experience at 3B to see if it made a difference, but still it did nothing. It worked for 1B, but no matter what I do, it won't give me any ratings at third. Any ideas?

[Syd Thrift]

What's his handedness?

[RonCo]

My guess is that he's left handed.

[bigd51]

Originally Posted by RonCo

My guess is that he's left handed.

Wow, I had no idea that mattered. I mean, it makes total sense to me, but I never thought it would matter if the player is good enough. After running a quick search of every qualified 3B in the league, sure enough, every one of them are right-handed throwers.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, the last left handed third baseman played in the majors in the early 1900s if memory serves, and the last regular played in the early 1890s. IRL a third of all pitchers are LHPs even though there are only around 5-10% of us in the population, so basically if a player throws well enough to play third base, he was made into a pitcher before he completed high school.

[bigd51]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, the last left handed third baseman played in the majors in the early 1900s if memory serves, and the last regular played in the early 1890s. IRL a third of all pitchers are LHPs even though there are only around 5-10% of us in the population, so basically if a player throws well enough to play third base, he was made into a pitcher before he completed high school.

Jezuz... how old ARE you?

[bwburke94]

Early 1900s? I think not - Don Mattingly started two games at third base in 1986.

[RonCo]

Stealing a post made elsewhere by recte ... https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...ves/10835.html

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Early 1900s? I think not - Don Mattingly started two games at third base in 1986.

Sorry, I meant "with any regularity" and the other one would have been "as an everyday player".

[Rosco Peabody]

Ohhhh you were right. He's a lefty!

Wow. That stinks that the game won't let a lefty play there just because there is a stigma in baseball against it. Actually, it stinks that baseball managers won't let them play the left side of the infield
My 11 year old nephew is a lefty and he's the best infielder on the team, a natural shortstop, but the coach won't play him anywhere but CF or 1B because he's a lefty. I'm like, "I understand at major league level or college, but...come on! The kid is in fifth grade!"

[CurlyKarkovice]

It's not really a stigma against it. It is about timing and efficiency. A lefty at thirdbase can't get their body turned to throw to first base as fast as a righty. Infield singles on soft ground balls or bunts down the third base line would sky rocket. Same with throwing to second for turning a double play, rarely would they get the guy at first out.

Same reasoning for lefties at Catcher, SS and 2B. With lefties at catcher, they can't turn and throw fast enough to a runner stealing third like a righty can. Lefty second base? Ground ball up the middle player has to turn against his momentum or do a backward pirouette around to get it to first with any sort of hard throw. SS a grounder between SS and third, they would have to stop dead and spin 180 degrees to throw a decent ball to first.

It's just incredibly inefficient to have lefties at those 4 positions so they don't get good ratings there no matter what.

[CurlyKarkovice]

Originally Posted by Rosco Peabody

Ohhhh you were right. He's a lefty!

My 11 year old nephew is a lefty and he's the best infielder on the team, a natural shortstop, but the coach won't play him anywhere but CF or 1B because he's a lefty. I'm like, "I understand at major league level or college, but...come on! The kid is in fifth grade!"

Yeah you'd think they let the kids play those positions sometimes for fun. Oh well, probably an over serious dude who thinks they won't let him play there when he gets older so there's no point.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

It's not really a stigma against it. It is about timing and efficiency. A lefty at thirdbase can't get their body turned to throw to first base as fast as a righty. Infield singles on soft ground balls or bunts down the third base line would sky rocket. Same with throwing to second for turning a double play, rarely would they get the guy at first out.

Same reasoning for lefties at Catcher, SS and 2B. With lefties at catcher, they can't turn and throw fast enough to a runner stealing third like a righty can. Lefty second base? Ground ball up the middle player has to turn against his momentum or do a backward pirouette around to get it to first with any sort of hard throw. SS a grounder between SS and third, they would have to stop dead and spin 180 degrees to throw a decent ball to first.

It's just incredibly inefficient to have lefties at those 4 positions so they don't get good ratings there no matter what.

Nah, not really. It's not even about the stigma, really. It's about the pitching issue.

[mmarra82]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Early 1900s? I think not - Don Mattingly started two games at third base in 1986.

Mattingly turning a DP...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grCjchHFJyA

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by mmarra82

Mattingly turning a DP...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grCjchHFJyA

Third base is not too tough as long as he's moving to his left, like on that play. Looks a little awkward, but not that bad. But yeah, a left-handed third baseman would be virtually impossible to charge the ball and fire to first on a play, as the motion for that I would guess would be just so incredibly awkward.

Left-handed catchers are one that I never really understood why there are none. Yeah, I get the motion to third would be a bit tough, but so many catchers right now are perfecting the back-pick to first, and that would be the same motion. And you would kind of think that a lefty catcher would actually be beneficial in terms of fielding bunts or short plays, at least in terms of the throw to first on them. I've also heard that they don't work as well on plays to the plate for tagging, but again, that feels like a minor concern that you would just need to practice. I dunno - maybe just a case of nobody wants to risk it, so any lefty with the arm for catcher is probably better suited as a reliever anyways.

[Splitter24]

Yes. It's a stigma. RH shortstops go to their left to make plays and throw across their body with no issues. And they have to do a virtual 180 when they're the pivot man on a 4-6-3 DP which no one seems to have an issue with whereas a LH shortstop should turn that play faster.

I am a little biased being a lefthander who grew up as a thirdbaseman before transitioning to the traditional P/1B/OF. Former left-handed major leaguer Mike Squires, who played about 15 games at 3B for the mid-80's White Sox, always claimed that the only position a left hander couldn't really play was 2B. I agree.

[CurlyKarkovice]

Originally Posted by mmarra82

Mattingly turning a DP...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grCjchHFJyA

Awesome video! Thanks for sharing

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Splitter24

Yes. It's a stigma. RH shortstops go to their left to make plays and throw across their body with no issues. And they have to do a virtual 180 when they're the pivot man on a 4-6-3 DP which no one seems to have an issue with whereas a LH shortstop should turn that play faster.

I am a little biased being a lefthander who grew up as a thirdbaseman before transitioning to the traditional P/1B/OF. Former left-handed major leaguer Mike Squires, who played about 15 games at 3B for the mid-80's White Sox, always claimed that the only position a left hander couldn't really play was 2B. I agree.

I do think there's enough troubling plays at SS or 3B that a lefty would have serious issues. As I said, any charging ball would be virtually impossible to field, and you lose being able to barehand plays like that. Jeter's signature leaping throw would be impossible too, so while they're not converted a ton, you would lose a bunch of plays like that. Probably enough to overcome the positional adjustment, so any lefty of any worth would be more efficient in the outfield anyways.

[CurlyKarkovice]

Originally Posted by Splitter24

Yes. It's a stigma. RH shortstops go to their left to make plays and throw across their body with no issues. And they have to do a virtual 180 when they're the pivot man on a 4-6-3 DP which no one seems to have an issue with whereas a LH shortstop should turn that play faster.

I am a little biased being a lefthander who grew up as a thirdbaseman before transitioning to the traditional P/1B/OF. Former left-handed major leaguer Mike Squires, who played about 15 games at 3B for the mid-80's White Sox, always claimed that the only position a left hander couldn't really play was 2B. I agree.

I guess it is a stigma since awesome athletes can pull off a lot of situations with some ease. It just looks weird to us because you don't see it.

But when filling out a team of average players/athletes it's probably easier to stick to the most efficient handed infield. No extra time to work on a lefty catcher tagging across his body at home/snap throw around a RH batter on a player stealing third. SS on a deep grounder to his right, momentum right, throwing left, further away from 1B.

LH 3B on bunts, soft grounder down the line. Did you find that tough when you played third?

[Splitter24]

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

I guess it is a stigma since awesome athletes can pull off a lot of situations with some ease. It just looks weird to us because you don't see it.

Well, I think that's the crux of the issue. Since no living person really knows what it looks like to see a lefty left-side infielder playing at a high level on a regular basis, it just looks weird to see it, ie the Mattingly video above. I mean, it looks even weird for me to see it.

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

But when filling out a team of average players it's probably easier to stick to the most efficient handed infield. No extra time to work on a lefty catcher tagging across his body at home/snap throw around a RH batter on a player stealing third. SS on a deep grounder to his right, momentum right, throwing left, further away from 1st.

Well, yeah, sure. No one is going to go out of their way to put lefties at SS, 3B and Catcher. But since no one is going to take the time develop one at those positions, it's all kinda moot.

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

LH 3B on bunts, soft grounder down the line. Did you find that tough when you played third?

Granted, it was a looong time ago. But I don't recall it being very difficult. If you think about it, it's the exact mirror image of a shortstop ranging to his left to make a play at first base on a grounder up the middle. Both players are moving laterally in relation to the bag, making a throw across their body. And if anything, the LH 3B has a slightly shorter throw to 1B than the SS has going to his left. The LH3B never has to make a throw from out side the foul line on a grounder. The RH SS often has to be behind the equivalent baseline that runs from 2B to 3B.