Why does Kansas City keep cutting their top prospects?

Fronzizzle · 05-13-2018, 09:08 PM

Hello all,

Perhaps I should post this in the bug forum, but before I did I wanted to see if anyone else has had similar issues...

I sim all of my games (offline league) and just play the GM of my team, the Tigers. I was in July of my 2029 season and was looking to make some trades.

I won't get into too many specifics as I don't think it matters, but I found a 2 star current/4 star potential starting pitcher from Miami I was interested in and started looking into his background - under Acquired, it said "Minor League Free Agent Signing 2027." When I looked into the players History, I found that he was drafted at 1-8 by Kansas City in 2025. In April of 2026, he was named the #39 prospect in all of baseball, then two weeks later he was released by Kansas City, then a couple of days later signed by Miami. So of course, no team is going to release a Top 40 prospect, especially a starting pitcher that was 20 years old at the time.

Fast forward to the off-season. I'm going through the Rule 5 Draft and come across a 23 year old SP, 2 star current/5 star potential. He was unprotected by Miami. When I looked into him, it was almost an identical situation: drafted 1-2 by Kansas City, played a couple of years, named a Top 40 prospect and then cut a couple of weeks later.

I'm not going to go through every player, but I did look up a few more and haven't found anything like this from any other team.

Hemi425HP · 05-13-2018, 09:56 PM

I wonder how the Royals' scouts had them rated at the time. Dumb organizations make dumb moves.

Dyzalot · 05-13-2018, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemi425HP

I wonder how the Royals' scouts had them rated at the time. Dumb organizations make dumb moves.

Guessing they were rated fairly high if they were drafted in the 1st round.

Hemi425HP · 05-13-2018, 10:18 PM

That's a good point. There's got to be something going on with KC since its just that organization.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Mets52 · 05-13-2018, 10:26 PM

Could be their minor league contract ran out and they didn't resign/add to 40 man?

Dyzalot · 05-13-2018, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mets52

Could be their minor league contract ran out and they didn't resign/add to 40 man?

Minor league contracts don't run out in the first couple years after being drafted.

rudel.dietrich · 05-13-2018, 11:09 PM

Make sure your lowest level of minor leagues has an unlimited roster size. This has been an issue with OOTP since the Earth was young and never gets fixed.

brhlbryce · 05-13-2018, 11:17 PM

Probably because they're trying to mimic the Royals terrible management IRL (saying this as a Royals fan)

Critical Mass · 05-14-2018, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Make sure your lowest level of minor leagues has an unlimited roster size. This has been an issue with OOTP since the Earth was young and never gets fixed.

Even still, how would you find and keep 25 guys better than the #40 Prospect?

Dyzalot · 05-14-2018, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Critical Mass

Even still, how would you find and keep 25 guys better than the #40 Prospect?

Actually it would be over 100 guys assuming at least four minor league teams are in the system.

Qeltar · 05-14-2018, 09:35 AM

These sorts of oddities happen fairly regularly.

Yesterday I found a 3 * prospect had appeared in the FA list. This is a guy whose name I remembered because I was trying to trade for him. Baltimore wanted one of my top 5 players for him, and he wasn't worth that much so I dropped the matter.

Then for some reason they cut him. The even weirder part is that he has no pitching history in 2019 at all. In 2018 they promoted him from rookie ball through A- due to nice numbers, he had one poor outing in A ball, and that's it. They put him down in rookie ball again but it hadn't started yet. They cut him 3 days before rookie ball starts. I checked and there's no suspensions, no injuries, nothing that would explain it. So it doesn't make a lot of sense.

And even if their GM decided he no longer fit into their plans, why not put him on the trading block? Why outright release a 23-year-old 60/50/50 potential SP with 5 pitches?

The GMs also seem to mostly ignore the FA list during the season. I pick up decent guys all the time without competition and then these same GMs are willing to trade for these guys.

Building an AI for something as complex as being a GM is difficult, and I'm sure it will continue to be improved step-wise over time.

WahooSam309 · 05-14-2018, 10:11 AM

In my current game, the Red Sox cut the #1 prospect in baseball at the end of spring training 1914. Guy by the name of Babe Ruth.

bwburke94 · 05-14-2018, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WahooSam309

In my current game, the Red Sox cut the #1 prospect in baseball at the end of spring training 1914. Guy by the name of Babe Ruth.

1914 means no minors, which is probably the reason. Early historical roster AI still needs to be looked at.

WahooSam309 · 05-14-2018, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwburke94

1914 means no minors, which is probably the reason. Early historical roster AI still needs to be looked at.

It would be nice if some sort of loan system could be developed to represent those early pre-farm system transactions.

rudel.dietrich · 05-14-2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Actually it would be over 100 guys assuming at least four minor league teams are in the system.

Because even though AI seems to be a priority for every version of the game it is still lacking in many ways. It has gotten better but it still does some very not smart things.
You can help it along a bit with my suggestion (which is not my suggestion, it has been around for a long time)
By allowing every team in the league at least one team with unlimited roster spots the AI is not forced to make decisions when it comes time to make choices about who to cut based on roster size.

NoOne · 05-14-2018, 05:01 PM

except in very specific contexts, i wouldn't recommend any roster size limits in the minors. more so for rookie league, but even at upper levels it's just a problem for how the AI works. don't try to force a round peg into a square hole.

more is okay.. no problems but 'feelings' about it being too high. all limits do is cause potential problems. there are other ways to control mil population. # of rounds / # of rounds created and any other created players per year. just don't be too regimented in what you want/expect to see. it's a bit more fluid than that.

any uneven mil system will always have a few teams with too many in order for the teams with a larger mil system to have the ability to fill their own. it's a futile endeavor to try to combat this in the current state of ootp.

want to cull the #'s down a bit? find the largest mil system(s). if they are flooded with players you can reduce... if they barely fill out teams, you should not reduce created players per year (or historical intros etc). with the smaller systems there is nothing you can do. they operate at the whim of the larger systems need for more players.

changing settings for an even # of mil teams at all levels is easier to see/do, but you have to scan through and find teh minimum # at each level and make sure it never dips too low over a period of time.. after that you can feel safe it's enough once you witness the ebb and flow.

if they have the same # of each level, then it's fairly easy to control number of players at each level via other means.

fwiw, good prospects do get cut all the time and end up performing elsewhere -- it may not be common but it is ~normal. jd martinez is a great example, and i'm sure you can think of a few examples from your hometown team's experience in recent years. players they lost or gained through the years via a mistake of some sort in evaluation etc.

Qeltar · 05-14-2018, 07:51 PM

Okay, but the Astros shopped Martinez around to every other team before they dropped him. Right now the AI isn't programmed to shop guys, which I understand, it takes time to program things like that. But there's a valuation disconnect problem here: the AI shouldn't go from "I need one of your regulars if you want to trade for this prospect" to outright release in a couple of weeks, especially with no new data (gameplay). There's a problem there that maybe they can tweak.

It would also be nice to eventually see the occasional "regeneration" of a career later than normal, like Martinez's. At the time he was cut I believe he was 26, and only then hit his stride. I haven't seen that happen to any players so far in my play, though admittedly it's limited, but I have seen plenty of guys just drop off the table once they get in their 30s. Andrew Miller's career basically started at 27. For Rich Hill it was what, 36? But any pitcher I see in game gets aged right out of the majors by that point.

Dyzalot · 05-14-2018, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

Okay, but the Astros shopped Martinez around to every other team before they dropped him. Right now the AI isn't programmed to shop guys, which I understand, it takes time to program things like that. But there's a valuation disconnect problem here: the AI shouldn't go from "I need one of your regulars if you want to trade for this prospect" to outright release in a couple of weeks, especially with no new data (gameplay). There's a problem there that maybe they can tweak.

It would also be nice to eventually see the occasional "regeneration" of a career later than normal, like Martinez's. At the time he was cut I believe he was 26, and only then hit his stride. I haven't seen that happen to any players so far in my play, though admittedly it's limited, but I have seen plenty of guys just drop off the table once they get in their 30s. Andrew Miller's career basically started at 27. For Rich Hill it was what, 36? But any pitcher I see in game gets aged right out of the majors by that point.

While you do have a point, Rich Hill's best season, at least as measured by WAR, was when he was 27.

OutS|der · 05-15-2018, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

except in very specific contexts, i wouldn't recommend any roster size limits in the minors. more so for rookie league, but even at upper levels it's just a problem for how the AI works. don't try to force a round peg into a square hole.

Roster limits are a great way to force the AI to dump all their prospects.

Maybe one year we can have them working as intended

Grafton19 · 05-15-2018, 01:58 PM

Prospects normally don’t pan out. I used to get frustrated with this, But then it kills the imagination of the game to see a 35-year-old don’t back down the single-A so you have to pick your poison

05-13-2018, 09:56 PM	#2
Hemi425HP Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 202	I wonder how the Royals' scouts had them rated at the time. Dumb organizations make dumb moves. __________________

05-14-2018, 09:35 AM	#11
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	These sorts of oddities happen fairly regularly. Yesterday I found a 3 * prospect had appeared in the FA list. This is a guy whose name I remembered because I was trying to trade for him. Baltimore wanted one of my top 5 players for him, and he wasn't worth that much so I dropped the matter. Then for some reason they cut him. The even weirder part is that he has no pitching history in 2019 at all. In 2018 they promoted him from rookie ball through A- due to nice numbers, he had one poor outing in A ball, and that's it. They put him down in rookie ball again but it hadn't started yet. They cut him 3 days before rookie ball starts. I checked and there's no suspensions, no injuries, nothing that would explain it. So it doesn't make a lot of sense. And even if their GM decided he no longer fit into their plans, why not put him on the trading block? Why outright release a 23-year-old 60/50/50 potential SP with 5 pitches? The GMs also seem to mostly ignore the FA list during the season. I pick up decent guys all the time without competition and then these same GMs are willing to trade for these guys. Building an AI for something as complex as being a GM is difficult, and I'm sure it will continue to be improved step-wise over time. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-14-2018 at 09:40 AM.

05-14-2018, 05:01 PM	#16
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	except in very specific contexts, i wouldn't recommend any roster size limits in the minors. more so for rookie league, but even at upper levels it's just a problem for how the AI works. don't try to force a round peg into a square hole. more is okay.. no problems but 'feelings' about it being too high. all limits do is cause potential problems. there are other ways to control mil population. # of rounds / # of rounds created and any other created players per year. just don't be too regimented in what you want/expect to see. it's a bit more fluid than that. any uneven mil system will always have a few teams with too many in order for the teams with a larger mil system to have the ability to fill their own. it's a futile endeavor to try to combat this in the current state of ootp. want to cull the #'s down a bit? find the largest mil system(s). if they are flooded with players you can reduce... if they barely fill out teams, you should not reduce created players per year (or historical intros etc). with the smaller systems there is nothing you can do. they operate at the whim of the larger systems need for more players. changing settings for an even # of mil teams at all levels is easier to see/do, but you have to scan through and find teh minimum # at each level and make sure it never dips too low over a period of time.. after that you can feel safe it's enough once you witness the ebb and flow. if they have the same # of each level, then it's fairly easy to control number of players at each level via other means. fwiw, good prospects do get cut all the time and end up performing elsewhere -- it may not be common but it is ~normal. jd martinez is a great example, and i'm sure you can think of a few examples from your hometown team's experience in recent years. players they lost or gained through the years via a mistake of some sort in evaluation etc. Last edited by NoOne; 05-14-2018 at 05:05 PM.

05-14-2018, 07:51 PM	#17
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Okay, but the Astros shopped Martinez around to every other team before they dropped him. Right now the AI isn't programmed to shop guys, which I understand, it takes time to program things like that. But there's a valuation disconnect problem here: the AI shouldn't go from "I need one of your regulars if you want to trade for this prospect" to outright release in a couple of weeks, especially with no new data (gameplay). There's a problem there that maybe they can tweak. It would also be nice to eventually see the occasional "regeneration" of a career later than normal, like Martinez's. At the time he was cut I believe he was 26, and only then hit his stride. I haven't seen that happen to any players so far in my play, though admittedly it's limited, but I have seen plenty of guys just drop off the table once they get in their 30s. Andrew Miller's career basically started at 27. For Rich Hill it was what, 36? But any pitcher I see in game gets aged right out of the majors by that point. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-14-2018 at 07:55 PM.

05-13-2018, 09:08 PM	#1
Fronzizzle Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 177	Why does Kansas City keep cutting their top prospects? Hello all, Perhaps I should post this in the bug forum, but before I did I wanted to see if anyone else has had similar issues... I sim all of my games (offline league) and just play the GM of my team, the Tigers. I was in July of my 2029 season and was looking to make some trades. I won't get into too many specifics as I don't think it matters, but I found a 2 star current/4 star potential starting pitcher from Miami I was interested in and started looking into his background - under Acquired, it said "Minor League Free Agent Signing 2027." When I looked into the players History, I found that he was drafted at 1-8 by Kansas City in 2025. In April of 2026, he was named the #39 prospect in all of baseball, then two weeks later he was released by Kansas City, then a couple of days later signed by Miami. So of course, no team is going to release a Top 40 prospect, especially a starting pitcher that was 20 years old at the time. Fast forward to the off-season. I'm going through the Rule 5 Draft and come across a 23 year old SP, 2 star current/5 star potential. He was unprotected by Miami. When I looked into him, it was almost an identical situation: drafted 1-2 by Kansas City, played a couple of years, named a Top 40 prospect and then cut a couple of weeks later. I'm not going to go through every player, but I did look up a few more and haven't found anything like this from any other team.

05-13-2018, 10:18 PM	#4
Hemi425HP Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 202	That's a good point. There's got to be something going on with KC since its just that organization. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk __________________

05-13-2018, 10:26 PM	#5
Mets52 Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 124	Could be their minor league contract ran out and they didn't resign/add to 40 man?

05-13-2018, 11:09 PM	#7
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	Make sure your lowest level of minor leagues has an unlimited roster size. This has been an issue with OOTP since the Earth was young and never gets fixed.

05-13-2018, 11:17 PM	#8
brhlbryce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 112	Probably because they're trying to mimic the Royals terrible management IRL (saying this as a Royals fan)

05-14-2018, 10:11 AM	#12
WahooSam309 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 83	In my current game, the Red Sox cut the #1 prospect in baseball at the end of spring training 1914. Guy by the name of Babe Ruth.

05-15-2018, 01:58 PM	#20
Grafton19 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 470	Prospects normally don’t pan out. I used to get frustrated with this, But then it kills the imagination of the game to see a 35-year-old don’t back down the single-A so you have to pick your poison