Fatal Flaw. I want a refund.

[SandmanRivera]

I would have sent this privately to the company but I see no “Contact Us” option.

I realize this query should undoubtedly go somewhere else but I have no time or patience for figuring out where I should go.

OOTP 21 is a great concept and in a number of ways it has been well executed. However, it does still have numerous flaws and bugs, as hte bug reports forum demonstrates. Because of these flaws and bugs I have inquired about a Do Over/Save As function that would allow me to work around the flaws and bugs that occur during Play-By-Play, the software’s flaws and errors as well as my own. I have been told that there have been requests for an Undo function to correct for flaws/errors/mistakes, but that these requests have been roundly rejected by the company. That's right, the company does not want to enable its customers with a workaround for its own bugs, such as runs disappearing. And it wants to control the customer's desire to correct his own mistakes, such as neglecting to install a PH for a RP through a momentary lapse of tracking who was up to bat. The latest example I experienced was when the game removed a star player for a pinch runner in the SECOND inning, with NO SCORE. I would want to do that over every time. But the company insists that I should live with the flaws/errors/mistakes like this because they don't want me to have any control over the results of the game. (Even if the results are egregiously flawed, bug-induced or for any other reason undesirable to me.)

So much for giving the customer what he wants. And for the dumbest reason imaginable. What should the company care if the customer wants to undo an AB, inning, game, day, week or whatever? Why wouldn't the company give the customer a mechanism to work around the flaws and errors of its own software? What should the company care how the customer plays the game? Not to provide an easily implementable, simple mechanism for the customer to create and manage their own files is simply crazy.

I have developed my own work-around that goes as follows:

1) Exit the Play-by-Play (which is saved even when I don't want it to be)
2) Exit OOTP (because the play by play was saved so I can’t just re-load the active file at the beginning of the inning or whenever I, not the program, saved the file)
3) Open Windows Explorer
4) Select Documents
5) Select OOTP Developments
6) Select OOTP Baseball 21
7) Select Saved Games
8) Delete the active file just exited
9) Select the last backup/game I saved
10) Make a copy of the last backup/game saved
11) Rename that copy as the new active file
(10 & 11 so I don't use the backup and have a file to go forward with)
12) Go back and re-enter OOTP
13) Load the new active file
14) Go to the Schedule
15) Select to re-enter the game
16) Re-enter all the Options, which are NOT saved
17) Re-enter the game
18) Repeat each half inning

With this mechanism and a few different manipulations of the files, I can maintain copies of several half-innings if not the entire game, so I can back out as far as I like when something goes wrong (because something WILL eventually go wrong). At the end of the game I delete all the individual half-inning files except the last one, which contains the whole official game that I have approved. I do this for every game of the day and then at the end of the day I delete all of the individual game files except the last one of the day. I do the same at the end of the week, delete all the individual day files except the one at the end of the week. I would have done the same at the end of the month but I tired of the whole process. Managing the files the way OOTP forces me to do it destroys the flow and ultimately the enjoyment of the game. In this mode, the game isn't worth the effort. It’s a chore. I used this mechanism to back-up the action in the Play-by-Play multiple times each game “day” and was glad I had the option. Given the nature of the game, I wouldn't play the it without the ability to essentially “Undo.” But it's too much work. And it’s so unnecessary. It’s a shame.

What would allow me to avoid all this tedious nonsense?

1) A Save As function (ALL software programs have Open, Save, Save As and Close file options for obvious reasons; but not OOTP) so that the customer, not the company, can control the files they create as they choose. There would be no need for 1) the cumbersome and somewhat inscrutable Backup/Restore/Name a Directory mechanism. There would be no need for 2) Quickstart. There would be no reason for 3) exiting OOTP, drilling down through directory structures, and manipulating files at that level just to create the necessary backups and active files to play the game relatively free of errors. With Save As the user could easily create all those files in a completely flexible, self-determined manner, all without leaving OOTP, because the company would have been wise enough to provide the basic file management facilities you'd find in ANY other software. One has to ask: of what use is file control to the company? I mean, wtf?

2) The second option to get around the tedious 18 step nonsense to manage OOTP files for error-free play would be to allow a user to Save or Not Save upon exiting Play-By-Play. The software randomly gives ONE of these two options upon exiting Play-By-Play: a) Save and Exit, OR b) Exit. Interestingly, the game is saved EITHER WAY (a or b). Bwahahaha. (Is that a bug or is it just another way the company wrests control of the file from the user, forcing them to accept the results of the Play-By-Play whether they want it or not? Why does it even suggest that you can Exit without Saving when you can't? Good lord.) What should happen is the player should be given BOTH options upon exiting Play-By-Play: to a) Save and Exit OR b) Exit (without saving). And, of course, both options should actually work. But Noooo.... By exiting without saving the user could simply Load the game where it was the last time it was saved BY THE USER, OR, if there were a Save As function, load whichever previously saved version the user chooses. All without having to leave OOTP and dive into Windows Explorer. Like a normal, grown-up piece of software. A Save (and no exit) option should also exist within Play-By-Play. You shouldn't have to Exit Play-By-Play just to Save, if you want to (just as you shouldn’t have to Save if you don’t want to). You should be able to Save when you have accomplished something you don’t want to lose if you subsequently need to back up the action. And I hope to god OOTP isn't saving the game routinely throughout Play-By-Play, whether or not the customer wants it. I chose the option to Save Daily and yet the game is saved every time I exit Play-By-Play and every time I leave the OOTP program, whether or not I wanted it. Instead, I should be asked if I want to Save and given the option to save or not to save. Basic software design principle: when in doubt, give the option/control to the User.

Again, why wouldn't the company want to provide these BASIC file management tools to the customer? What does the company care what goes on in the customer's own game on his own computer? They wonderfully provide a million options/settings for the customer to customize the game, including the ability to edit Player ability to freakish levels and otherwise create outlandish hypothetical game results; why wouldn't they give the customer the option to manage his own game files? Why wouldn't they want to give/allow what the customer wants? The answer's not a good one. Control. That's all. They'll allow you to create ridiculous players, teams, games and seasons, but they won't allow you to control the subtraction of bad ABs, innings or games. Inscrutable control. They've been withholding these capabilities for YEARS. And this is not rocket science. This is not something you mistakenly overlook. This is by choice. Bad choice.

When I posted my request for a Do Over/Save function one user said something to the effect of “this is baseball not golf. There are no mulligans.” That would be fine if the game was perfect. But it’s far from it. Mulligans are exactly what it needs to justify all the time and energy it takes to Play-by-Play every game or anything close to it. Exactly. Moreover, why should that user, the company, or anyone, care or have control over whether or not I want or get a mulligan, regardless of the reason?

I could also ask for a refund on the grounds that this software is fraught with more bugs than any game/software I have used over the past 35 YEARS that I’ve had computers (except perhaps Baseball Mogul). From these forums it is clear that it will never be anywhere near bug-free. Because I really want a game like OOTP and am not interested in MLB The Show (I don't want to be a major league player; I want to be a GM/Manager). I might try to work around these problems with a Save As function and the ability to Save or Not Save upon exiting Play-By-Play, but...well, that's not an option, is it?

Look, if the company is unwilling to meet these simple requests which I and others have made, if for no other reason than to allow us to overcome the flaws and errors of its own software and make it palatable, then I have no interest in playing the game. Period. I have figured out how to work around it but it’s too odious. I wrote this post a week ago and waited to see if I would change my mind, because I really do want a game like OOTP. But I haven’t been tempted to play again with that 18 step obstacle course every half-inning. Without these changes, it's back to Baseball Mogul. It has flaws and bugs, too. But at least it's forgiving. It has Save As and it doesn’t save when you exit play-by-play. The user, not the developer, controls the file.

I want a refund. How do I get one?

[endgame]

Where did you make your purchase? Did I miss that? A refund is certainly the one do over we can accommodate.

[SandmanRivera]

I bought it through your website.

[Germaniac]

You're looking for a bug-free software? Good luck.

Even real-life baseball managers are not bug-free

[SandmanRivera]

I'm looking for a way around the bugs, at least some of them. A simple work-around is available. It's called Save As. Not perfect but pretty good. Please re-read the post. You seem to have totally missed the point. Unfortunately, the developer is apparently too much of a control freak to give the user the power of Save As. They're afraid of giving me control over my own game file. Wrap your head around that.

[SandmanRivera]

"A refund is certainly the one do over we can accommodate." - Endgame

Ok, what do I need to do to get the refund? I checked my email and don't see anything there...

[Matt Arnold]

Feel free to submit a ticket and we can process requests through there: https://support.ootpdevelopments.com/portal/home

[SandmanRivera]

A ticket? Never mind. Submitted one.

[Syd Thrift]

What's actually being asked for is insanity. We're talking about a "do-over" button that would allow you to restart a portion of any game from any point. I just a. don't see a big demand for this. b. think/know from my own knowledge of coding that this would be a huge endeavor, and c. this is not the way to ask for such a massive change.

I'd love to know what sports management game has this feature... I've certainly never run into it. Off-hand I can't think of *any* game that has this level of granularity to re-doing (even tactical RPGs that allow you to save-scum don't generally allow you to re-enter in the middle of a battle).

[SandmanRivera]

Every pc game I've ever played has the ability to Save As and name the file. Every single one. For 35 years.

All software has Open/Close/Save/Save As file options. It's a basic feature of software. Open Excel or Word and take a look.

A Save As-like feature has been asked for before. It's simple to implement (same as Save but allow for naming the file being saved) and would get tremendous use if implemented. Everyone would use it over using a simple save all the time. Everyone.

Example: save a game as Game 1.1 and start playing. Something goes wrong you just reload Game 1.1 and begin playing at the point when it was last saved. No big deal. Walls don't tumble. Nobody shrieks.

You make it sound radical when it is totally banal. It's an incredibly common software function.

What you are suggesting, Syd, is the insanity. What I am asking is perfectly reasonable.

The truly interesting part is that there is no intelligent explanation from the company as to why it feels it has to control the game file in this manner. What does the company have to gain from it? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. No upside, only downside. Total head-scratcher.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by SandmanRivera

Every pc game I've ever played has the ability to Save As and name the file. Every single one. For 35 years.

You have the ability to do this in the game as well. I have two separate saves set up for two separate leagues. You also have the ability to back up your current game, which would allow you to bring it back up from the point of its own save. That is a very time-consuming process, of course, because OOTP keeps track of a lot of stuff, but yes, it absolutely can still be done.

Now, please actually answer my question: what games out there allow you to do this kind of granular, between-rounds level of save-scumming?

[endgame]

However interesting a debate could ensue from this, I don't see the point of continuation. He wanted a refund, and he was given the avenue. The balance becomes noise, IMHO, but carry on....or not.

[SandmanRivera]

"You have the ability to do this in the game as well. I have two separate saves set up for two separate leagues."

You say so but how? By creating two different games and naming them differently upon creation? I don't see how you get two different saves if you can't name the files at any point but creation.

"You also have the ability to back up your current game, which would allow you to bring it back up from the point of its own save. That is a very time-consuming process, of course, because OOTP keeps track of a lot of stuff, but yes, it absolutely can still be done."

Time consuming is the operative word. Also, so far as I can tell we are limited to one back-up file. And "its own save" sounds like a problem; what I want to do is save when I want, not "its own save." Wouldn't it be nice to simply save your game AS game 1.1 and be able to revert to that save-point at any time thereafter by simply Loading game 1.1? Or to revert back further, if necessary, to, say, a game 1.0? None of this restoring and naming directories and so forth. And winding up with a file of what name? And what name does it become after you've begun using it? What name when it saves? What name to re-load it? What becomes of the file you were using when you restored? Does the back-up become that file? My lord. Everyone would understand a simple Save As. No need for an entry in the manual.

"Now, please actually answer my question: what games out there allow you to do this kind of granular, between-rounds level of save-scumming?"

You are way over-thinking this. Are you aware of the Save As function? Do you know how it works? Open Excel and play around. Now try Might and Magic for example. Or Age of Empires. Or Civilization. Or... In these games you can save the game as game 1.1 and play. Then save as 1.2 and play some more. Then save as 1.3 and play even more. Something went wrong and you realize you have to go back to 1.1 to unravel the problem? No biggie. Load 1.1. Simple. In this manner I could "undo" the problem that occurred when the software took out a star player for a pinch runner in the second inning with no score. I could just re-load to a point before that player came to bat. But I can't do that because I can't do something as basic and simple as SAVE AS.

[SandmanRivera]

"However interesting a debate could ensue from this, I don't see the point of continuation." - Endgame

Yes, let's not use a forum to discuss a basic game flaw like omitting Save As. It would be worth understanding what guiding principle the company followed when taking this decision. Because otherwise it's entirely inscrutable. But then maybe that's the point. After all, there are no good answers.

[pstrickert]

Might (or might not) be of interest: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=206349

[pstrickert]

And: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=193951

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by SandmanRivera

"However interesting a debate could ensue from this, I don't see the point of continuation." - Endgame

Yes, let's not use a forum to discuss a basic game flaw like omitting Save As. It would be worth understanding what guiding principle the company followed when taking this decision. Because otherwise it's entirely inscrutable. But then maybe that's the point. After all, there are no good answers.

There was no omission. You can backup and restore league files. You're whinging that this is too time-consuming. Yes, very good. OOTP's saves are big. That means "not small". There are lots and lots and lots of data that have to be packed and unpacked for you.

It's not a game that lends itself to save-scumming well. Good luck finding any sports management simulation that does that. Toodles!

[SandmanRivera]

What is the big deal?

I don't know what "save-scumming" is, but if I can SAVE the file easily I should be able to SAVE AS easily, too. It's just adding the ability for the user to name the file being saved. As in SAVE AS "Game 1.1" 99.9999999% of the work was done when the company wrote the code to SAVE the file. .0000001% is giving the user the ability to name the file, SAVE AS "Game 1.1" or "Game 1.2" or "Game 1.3"

If SAVE is not rocket science, then SAVE AS is not rocket science. All the real work has been done already with SAVE.

Then once I have SAVEd the file AS I can easily just load it rather than restoring a back-up. Just Load the file.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.

The rest of arguing around this is total nonsense. All we are talking about is a basic Save As function. It's not some mysterious, world-record-breaking thing. Save As. That's it.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by SandmanRivera

What is the big deal? If I can SAVE the file easily I should be able to SAVE AS easily too. It's just adding the ability for the user to name the file being saved.


The rest of arguing around this is total rubbish.

You can already do this. You just want it to be faster than it is. It's not going to get faster, at least not with current technology.

[SandmanRivera]

pstrickert

Thanks for the "Undo" links. I can see now that I shouldn't have referred to Undo. I can see how that would be difficult to program.

All I'm looking for is a simple Save As function you'd see in any other program. That way you can create multiple drafts of something and revert to an older draft if something goes wrong in the document. In this case the game.

So no, not Undo. Just Save As so I can 1) save when I want and only when I want and 2) I can name the file.