Peak Seasons of Career for OOTP 21

Mifr44 · 08-14-2020, 05:55 PM

My interest in a baseball simulator is to set up a league of MLB's all-time greats playing against each other, along with some past player favorites thrown into the mix. My experience in the past was with SOM's board game starting in the mid-to-late 1960s and through much of the 1970s.

This would be exclusively a solo adventure, so having the ability for the software to play out a season on its own would be great. OOTP 21 appears to have that ability, with a *lot* of customization. My guess is the first go-around with OOTP 21 will be time consuming but likely rewarding in the long run.

Unlike many who played the teams and/or seasons as-is (I see that a lot with the posts here for OOTP), we scrambled the seasons into a draft, allowing a player to be only drafted once, and later we included some of the older seasons and all-time greats into the mix. Not exactly a very accurate way to game the players against each other, but it was a lot of fun.

I am looking to do something similar with OOTP 21, although it would be with much more precision than the old SOM game. The one parameter that is of the most interest is "Base Potential Ratings on". I believe the "Peak Seasons of Career" setting would be best for how I intend to play out the games in a season. I could do this differently at a later time for a different season.

How is "Peak Seasons of Career" calculated? An older discussion for OOTP 10 indicated it was the average of the best three seasons, however those are defined by OOTP. The three seasons could be non-consecutive. Is this still true for OOTP 21?

I noticed in an OOTP tutorial video on YouTube, How To Import A Historical Player In OOTP 21, that a player can be added as a free agent either one at a time or in a text file of players (I figure I would do the latter). But part of that input is specifying a season. Does the selection of this season impact the "Peak Seasons of Career" setting (or vice versa)?

On a related note, I've seen the thread by Captain Walrus that was started back in 2010 where he created an all-time players database using the top six seasons for the averaging. Is that something worth considering for a smaller subset of players, assuming I can grasp the statistical mechanics of doing so? Or has OOTP changed enough in the last 10 years to where this might be pointless?

As is the case for every other simulator I've looked at, OOTP uses an average for a given season (not sure of the impact of Recalc). It would have been interesting to have found one that would allow the input of multiple seasons, then vary the performance within a season over the range of statistics rather than a strict average. Probably too difficult to implement and quite possibly flawed for a simulator.

Mifr44 · 08-15-2020, 03:38 AM

I should also add if the league I want to set up is not the best use of OOTP and you believe there are better options out there, please let me know. I'm probably an outlier with what I what to do with the simulator.

Brad K · 08-15-2020, 04:09 PM

If you want to play multiple seasons suggest you import at beginning of players best years string and turn development off.

Mifr44 · 08-16-2020, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

If you want to play multiple seasons suggest you import at beginning of players best years string and turn development off.

So, even if the Peak Seasons of Career option is selected, the year input in the menu or the text file somehow impacts the peak seasons? If so, that is very confusing.

Brad K · 08-16-2020, 11:51 PM

I read your other post about SOM and what you did there was play "seasons" that were single seasons in isolation. Time and talent didn't change. Although time can go on in OOTP along with changing talent and new players, I suggest instead you treat it as a single season in isolation and only you know that the careers are going to go on without aging or talent change (exactly what you did in SOM).

Don't get hung up on OOTP's capabilities that don't apply to what you are doing. There's no reason for you to run year after year with time progression as OOTP is capable. Set the game up, set it as a template, and run it. After that's done start a new "season" with the template.

It seems to me what you really want is to be able to have players play multiple seasons at their peak, like you did in SOM and so drop the idea of OOTP advancing time because that isn't what you what. You want talent level x frozen in time.

Brad K · 08-16-2020, 11:58 PM

With development turned off, playing only a single season, and game optimized for single season play then potential doesn't matter.

Mifr44 · 08-18-2020, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mifr44

How is "Peak Seasons of Career" calculated? An older discussion for OOTP 10 indicated it was the average of the best three seasons, however those are defined by OOTP. The three seasons could be non-consecutive. Is this still true for OOTP 21?

Still in search of answers for the above.

As my research is starting to indicate, having an all-time greatest league going back to prior to 1900 is not trivial. It's the primary reason for asking the above questions. OOTP, DMB, and Action PC! all "normalize" their statistics differently.

Action PC! in their Baseball History Collection sets a "peak seasons" normalized HR rate for Babe Ruth at 40 HRs, while Frank Thomas is at 42, Hack Wilson is at 45, and Barry Bonds is at 58 (from a list of top 100 normalized averages). Even though the methodology for this is explained, a lot of assumptions take place. I'm not sure I agree with some of it.

Conversely, according to some, Babe Ruth routinely hits 65-85 HRs a season in DMB using their All-Time Greatest Players set (using a peak stretch of 10 seasons for Ruth: 1919-1928) against some all-time great pitchers in that set. I think this is primarily due to Ruth being an outlier for many seasons before the league caught up to him. Honestly, I would rather have Ruth consistently hit 75 HRs a season than 40 HRs, but my belief is somewhere in the high 40s through 50s is more palatable.

Sorry about going off tangent. Like many who tweak (sometimes heavily) certain players' careers, especially those from the Negro Leagues, there are times where adjusting a player may make sense (or maybe that's a preference?). It's why I am trying to understand the various simulators in how they calculate career/peak settings for players.

Brad K · 08-18-2020, 08:48 PM

"Conversely, according to some, Babe Ruth routinely hits 65-85 HRs a season in DMB using their All-Time Greatest Players set (using a peak stretch of 10 seasons for Ruth: 1919-1928) against some all-time great pitchers in that set. I think this is primarily due to Ruth being an outlier for many seasons before the league caught up to him. Honestly, I would rather have Ruth consistently hit 75 HRs a season than 40 HRs, but my belief is somewhere in the high 40s through 50s is more palatable."

What that actually shows is the game is messed up. Make a league of the best of the best and everyone on average should underperform real life.

Brad K · 08-18-2020, 09:03 PM

I seriously doubt OOTP (or anyone else) is going to publish their formulas.

Suggest you import some players with different settings and look at their ratings in the editor. That should give you an idea of how its done.

Mifr44 · 08-19-2020, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

I seriously doubt OOTP (or anyone else) is going to publish their formulas.

I don't think what I'm asking for is some sort of trade secret. I have a spreadsheet of the DMB All-Time Greatest Players sets that list the available players and which seasons their statistics are based on. How those seasons are averaged is unknown to me, but it's the seasons (or at least how many seasons) that were used in their calculations.

I think I am just spinning myself in circles here with this request. I'll let it go and see if I can figure it out some other way.

Brad K · 08-19-2020, 09:47 PM

My mistake. I thought you were trying to figure out how to give players the highest possible ratings in your game, not find out how OOTP defines "best".

fredbeene · 08-29-2020, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mifr44

My interest in a baseball simulator is to set up a league of MLB's all-time greats playing against each other, along with some past player favorites thrown into the mix. My experience in the past was with SOM's board game starting in the mid-to-late 1960s and through much of the 1970s.

This would be exclusively a solo adventure, so having the ability for the software to play out a season on its own would be great. OOTP 21 appears to have that ability, with a *lot* of customization. My guess is the first go-around with OOTP 21 will be time consuming but likely rewarding in the long run.

Unlike many who played the teams and/or seasons as-is (I see that a lot with the posts here for OOTP), we scrambled the seasons into a draft, allowing a player to be only drafted once, and later we included some of the older seasons and all-time greats into the mix. Not exactly a very accurate way to game the players against each other, but it was a lot of fun.

I am looking to do something similar with OOTP 21, although it would be with much more precision than the old SOM game. The one parameter that is of the most interest is "Base Potential Ratings on". I believe the "Peak Seasons of Career" setting would be best for how I intend to play out the games in a season. I could do this differently at a later time for a different season.

How is "Peak Seasons of Career" calculated? An older discussion for OOTP 10 indicated it was the average of the best three seasons, however those are defined by OOTP. The three seasons could be non-consecutive. Is this still true for OOTP 21?

I noticed in an OOTP tutorial video on YouTube, How To Import A Historical Player In OOTP 21, that a player can be added as a free agent either one at a time or in a text file of players (I figure I would do the latter). But part of that input is specifying a season. Does the selection of this season impact the "Peak Seasons of Career" setting (or vice versa)?

On a related note, I've seen the thread by Captain Walrus that was started back in 2010 where he created an all-time players database using the top six seasons for the averaging. Is that something worth considering for a smaller subset of players, assuming I can grasp the statistical mechanics of doing so? Or has OOTP changed enough in the last 10 years to where this might be pointless?

As is the case for every other simulator I've looked at, OOTP uses an average for a given season (not sure of the impact of Recalc). It would have been interesting to have found one that would allow the input of multiple seasons, then vary the performance within a season over the range of statistics rather than a strict average. Probably too difficult to implement and quite possibly flawed for a simulator.

I believe the "Peak Seasons of Career" setting would be best for how I intend to play out the games in a season. I could do this differently at a later time for a different season.>>>

I thought the same thing... sadly PEAK SEASON does not work.
It will no bring in the correct potentials and they are meaningless for players over 29....some change the put in 21 without calling it out anywhere in documentation or reason

fredbeene · 08-29-2020, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

If you want to play multiple seasons suggest you import at beginning of players best years string and turn development off.

why should you turn dev off?
might as well turn off financials and player attributes too?

fredbeene · 08-29-2020, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

I read your other post about SOM and what you did there was play "seasons" that were single seasons in isolation. Time and talent didn't change. Although time can go on in OOTP along with changing talent and new players, I suggest instead you treat it as a single season in isolation and only you know that the careers are going to go on without aging or talent change (exactly what you did in SOM).

Don't get hung up on OOTP's capabilities that don't apply to what you are doing. There's no reason for you to run year after year with time progression as OOTP is capable. Set the game up, set it as a template, and run it. After that's done start a new "season" with the template.

It seems to me what you really want is to be able to have players play multiple seasons at their peak, like you did in SOM and so drop the idea of OOTP advancing time because that isn't what you what. You want talent level x frozen in time.

Do you have any screen shots showing PEAK SEASONS POT options works as expected

Brad K · 08-30-2020, 12:07 PM

Playing a single season POT doesn't matter.

Mifr44 · 08-30-2020, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredbeene

why should you turn dev off?
might as well turn off financials and player attributes too?

Probably to play out seasons with all-time greatest players at their peak career seasons or career averages throughout. No aging, no recalc, no development, no minor leagues, no financials, no auto-tradings, etc.

Which begs the question: Why use OOTP for that? Because you can? If those features are supposed to be a part of every season played out on OOTP, then why have them as options in the first place?

Brad K · 08-30-2020, 09:02 PM

OOTP is a "time goes on" sim. But what we have here is a situation where the desire is to have players remain the same (at their best) while time goes on. If people don't want time to go on then the way to do it is import a players top season with the optimized for single season play setting, disable talent change randomness, save it as a template, and play ONE season.

Then start another game with the same template and play ONE season. What's being attempted here is to play 1961 Mickey Mantle for 61, 62, 63, 64, who knows how long.

There's no such thing as 1961 Mickey Mantle for four years straight. Set up 61 and play it multiple times. Just like you would with Diamond Mind or, oh, say, Ethan Allen's All Star Baseball.

08-14-2020, 05:55 PM	#1
Mifr44 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 27	Peak Seasons of Career for OOTP 21 My interest in a baseball simulator is to set up a league of MLB's all-time greats playing against each other, along with some past player favorites thrown into the mix. My experience in the past was with SOM's board game starting in the mid-to-late 1960s and through much of the 1970s. This would be exclusively a solo adventure, so having the ability for the software to play out a season on its own would be great. OOTP 21 appears to have that ability, with a lot of customization. My guess is the first go-around with OOTP 21 will be time consuming but likely rewarding in the long run. Unlike many who played the teams and/or seasons as-is (I see that a lot with the posts here for OOTP), we scrambled the seasons into a draft, allowing a player to be only drafted once, and later we included some of the older seasons and all-time greats into the mix. Not exactly a very accurate way to game the players against each other, but it was a lot of fun. I am looking to do something similar with OOTP 21, although it would be with much more precision than the old SOM game. The one parameter that is of the most interest is "Base Potential Ratings on". I believe the "Peak Seasons of Career" setting would be best for how I intend to play out the games in a season. I could do this differently at a later time for a different season. How is "Peak Seasons of Career" calculated? An older discussion for OOTP 10 indicated it was the average of the best three seasons, however those are defined by OOTP. The three seasons could be non-consecutive. Is this still true for OOTP 21? I noticed in an OOTP tutorial video on YouTube, How To Import A Historical Player In OOTP 21, that a player can be added as a free agent either one at a time or in a text file of players (I figure I would do the latter). But part of that input is specifying a season. Does the selection of this season impact the "Peak Seasons of Career" setting (or vice versa)? On a related note, I've seen the thread by Captain Walrus that was started back in 2010 where he created an all-time players database using the top six seasons for the averaging. Is that something worth considering for a smaller subset of players, assuming I can grasp the statistical mechanics of doing so? Or has OOTP changed enough in the last 10 years to where this might be pointless? As is the case for every other simulator I've looked at, OOTP uses an average for a given season (not sure of the impact of Recalc). It would have been interesting to have found one that would allow the input of multiple seasons, then vary the performance within a season over the range of statistics rather than a strict average. Probably too difficult to implement and quite possibly flawed for a simulator.

08-15-2020, 03:38 AM	#2
Mifr44 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 27	I should also add if the league I want to set up is not the best use of OOTP and you believe there are better options out there, please let me know. I'm probably an outlier with what I what to do with the simulator.

08-15-2020, 04:09 PM	#3
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	If you want to play multiple seasons suggest you import at beginning of players best years string and turn development off.

08-16-2020, 11:51 PM	#5
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	I read your other post about SOM and what you did there was play "seasons" that were single seasons in isolation. Time and talent didn't change. Although time can go on in OOTP along with changing talent and new players, I suggest instead you treat it as a single season in isolation and only you know that the careers are going to go on without aging or talent change (exactly what you did in SOM). Don't get hung up on OOTP's capabilities that don't apply to what you are doing. There's no reason for you to run year after year with time progression as OOTP is capable. Set the game up, set it as a template, and run it. After that's done start a new "season" with the template. It seems to me what you really want is to be able to have players play multiple seasons at their peak, like you did in SOM and so drop the idea of OOTP advancing time because that isn't what you what. You want talent level x frozen in time.

08-16-2020, 11:58 PM	#6
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	With development turned off, playing only a single season, and game optimized for single season play then potential doesn't matter.

08-18-2020, 08:48 PM	#8
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	"Conversely, according to some, Babe Ruth routinely hits 65-85 HRs a season in DMB using their All-Time Greatest Players set (using a peak stretch of 10 seasons for Ruth: 1919-1928) against some all-time great pitchers in that set. I think this is primarily due to Ruth being an outlier for many seasons before the league caught up to him. Honestly, I would rather have Ruth consistently hit 75 HRs a season than 40 HRs, but my belief is somewhere in the high 40s through 50s is more palatable." What that actually shows is the game is messed up. Make a league of the best of the best and everyone on average should underperform real life.

08-18-2020, 09:03 PM	#9
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	I seriously doubt OOTP (or anyone else) is going to publish their formulas. Suggest you import some players with different settings and look at their ratings in the editor. That should give you an idea of how its done.

08-19-2020, 09:47 PM	#11
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	My mistake. I thought you were trying to figure out how to give players the highest possible ratings in your game, not find out how OOTP defines "best".

08-30-2020, 12:07 PM	#15
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	Playing a single season POT doesn't matter.

08-30-2020, 09:02 PM	#17
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,664 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	OOTP is a "time goes on" sim. But what we have here is a situation where the desire is to have players remain the same (at their best) while time goes on. If people don't want time to go on then the way to do it is import a players top season with the optimized for single season play setting, disable talent change randomness, save it as a template, and play ONE season. Then start another game with the same template and play ONE season. What's being attempted here is to play 1961 Mickey Mantle for 61, 62, 63, 64, who knows how long. There's no such thing as 1961 Mickey Mantle for four years straight. Set up 61 and play it multiple times. Just like you would with Diamond Mind or, oh, say, Ethan Allen's All Star Baseball.