Historical Minor Leagues

[Pelican]

I should know this; but find I need help. I am playing in 1932 and started with historical minors. During my first season, I made some changes, to better distribute minor league teams among MLB organizations. When I flipped to 1933, those changes did not carry over.


I think my error was toggling on “Historical Minors”. That caused the reset. So, how do I keep my revised league/team structure, while adding rookies who came into the game in 1933?

[luckymann]

Unless you use the workaround that has been posted on here at the initial point of creation for the save, as far as I know historical minors are a binary proposition. If you have them ON, you get all the players but must cop all the structural and affiliation changes from year to year.

You still get rookies if they are OFF, but only those who made it to the majors. To do so you need to have IMPORT HISTORICAL ROOKIES checked in the Historical tab.

Is that what you meant?

G

[thehef]

I think what the OP means is that he changed some affiliations. If so, the issue is that for future seasons - the ones after initial creation - OOTP looks at the milbteams and milbleagues csv files for minor league structure. So the only way to accomplish what Pelican wants to do is as follows:

- Determine your minor league affiliation changes ahead of time, or at least before you advance past your first season
- Make these changes in your milbteams file (if the only changes are to affiliations, you don't need to do anything to the milbleagues file)... NOTE: Always make a backup of your files before editing anything!
- When you create your game, manually make the changes, as you did...

Note: At game creation, OOTP does not read from the csv files, but for subsequent seasons, it does. That's why manual changes need to be made in-game for the first season, but the csv files will drive the structure for subsequent seasons.

Also, something to be aware of: Players will continue to import to their original milb team. So if a first year player IRL played with an unaffiliated team, but in your game you have affiliated that team with an MLB organization, then that player will instantly become part of that organization. And therefore, OOTP AI may see fit to move him to another team within that organization. And along those lines, if you changed, for example, an affiliate of the Red Sox to instead be an affiliate of the Dodgers, then any first year players on that team would become members of LA's organization, whereas IRL they were members of Boston's org...

[Brad K]

Q1 about historical rookies with historical minors.

A player enters the game perhaps several years before his MLB debut and is assigned to the organization... where he originally signed or the one where he made his MLB debut as is the case without historical minors.

Bobby Bonilla was drafted by the Pirates and played MiL ball there. But after being a Rule 5 pick he broke into MLB with the White Sox. Later that year the Pirates traded for him.

In a historical rookies game without historical minors he's assigned to the White Sox. With historical rookies and historical minors is he a Pirate?

Q2 If minors are historical, isn't it exactly historical for just the first year?

Do OOTP GMs trade this young players as they wish or are they locked to their organization? I assume for my own purposes I can set my GM setting so I handle all trades at all levels and don't risk losing anyone I want.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Q1 about historical rookies with historical minors.

A player enters the game perhaps several years before his MLB debut and is assigned to the organization... where he originally signed or the one where he made his MLB debut as is the case without historical minors.

Bobby Bonilla was drafted by the Pirates and played MiL ball there. But after being a Rule 5 pick he broke into MLB with the White Sox. Later that year the Pirates traded for him.

In a historical rookies game without historical minors he's assigned to the White Sox. With historical rookies and historical minors is he a Pirate?

It depends upon whether you have historical transactions enabled. OOTP doesn't have historical txns for minor leaguers. However, for players who at some point made the major leagues, if they have organizational changes in their history, those transactions are in the historical txns database. So in the case of Bobby Bonilla:

1. He will import into the Pirates organization for 1981.
2. He will moved to the White Sox organization on 12/10/85 (due to the real life Rule 5 draft).
3. He will be moved to the Pirates organization on 7/23/86 (due to the real life trade).
4. ... and so forth...

Another example, Reggie Smith:

1. He'll import to the Twins organization for 1963.
2. He'll be moved to the Red Sox organization on 12/2/63 (due to him being purchased by Boston IRL).
3. On 10/26/73 he'll be moved to the Cardinals (due to a real life trade).
4. ... etc...

Originally Posted by Brad K

Q2 If minors are historical, isn't it exactly historical for just the first year?

Not sure if this answers your question, but if historical txns are not enabled, then in both the Bonilla and Smith examples, each #1 above will happen, and then what transactions subsequently occur will depend upon what the AI and/or the gamer does with trades, free agent signings, and other transactions.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Pelican

I think my error was toggling on “Historical Minors”. That caused the reset. So, how do I keep my revised league/team structure, while adding rookies who came into the game in 1933?

As I understand from other people who've posted about their attempts to modify the minor league structure and affiliates while playing with historical minors, none of your edits will be maintained once you get to the next season.

If you turn off historical minors, as Luckymann indicated, then the game will no longer import rookies based on their professional baseball debuts and will only import players who made it to the majors, and it will import them during the year when they made their MLB debut.

If you play with historical minors, you just have to accept that minor league affiliations or structures aren't going to match real life history. Or you'll probably spend a massive amount of time trying to create the right structure and teams every year, only to have it all undone by the start of the next season.

Some realism has to be sacrificed because the game can't simulate the complete chaos of the the minor leagues in the early decades of baseball. There's just no way to simulate the year-to-year reality where many teams were still independent, affiliations were changing all the time, minor leagues came into existence and went defunct, and teams moved between leagues regularly.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

As I understand from other people who've posted about their attempts to modify the minor league structure and affiliates while playing with historical minors, none of your edits will be maintained once you get to the next season.

True. Except that if you modify the teams.csv files to - for examples - change some affiliations or modify ballpark names, then the game will make your changes, keep your changes, etc. It works well. (One thing you do NOT want to change are any team names. That's because - unlike OOTP's MLB - at import the game matches players to their teams by the name of the team in the player's record.) So if Joe Schmoe played for the Spokane Indians in 1963, if you create a game in 1963 (or advance a game to 1963 and that year is Schmoe's rookie year, then he will import to Spokane. But if you had changed the nickname of Spokane - in the milbteams.csv file - to the Rainiers or anything else other than Indians, then Schmoe would not be assigned to Spokane (he'd be a free agent instead).

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

If you play with historical minors, you just have to accept that minor league affiliations or structures aren't going to match real life history. Or you'll probably spend a massive amount of time trying to create the right structure and teams every year, only to have it all undone by the start of the next season.

Actually, OOTP's minor league structures are pretty realistic. They are accurate except that a) early 1900's minor leagues (as well pre-1900 minors) are not in the game yet, b) minor leagues that do not have affiliates (so, several independent leagues, for example, etc.) are not in the game, and c) some minor leagues are not included simply because the players & player data is unknown. (Note that a) and b) are essentially the same thing...)

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Some realism has to be sacrificed because the game can't simulate the complete chaos of the the minor leagues in the early decades of baseball. There's just no way to simulate the year-to-year reality where many teams were still independent, affiliations were changing all the time, minor leagues came into existence and went defunct, and teams moved between leagues regularly.

The game actually handles the multiple leagues & teams folding, creating, re-creating, relocating, etc. (i.e., minor league evolution), pretty well. For example, lots of leagues shut down during the Depression and/or WWII, and then most came back later. In OOTP = no problemo! And when the MLB kicked off it's period of multiple relocations in the 50's - which resulted is many minor league teams relocating or folding - OOTP's minor league module moves minor-league franchises quite realistically. In fact, minor league franchises retain their historically-accurate history through multiple relocations.

What OOTP's minor league module does not do is fold leagues or teams during the season. That could probably be done relatively easily by the gamer, though (shortening the schedule to fold a league; removing a team from the schedule to fold a team)... OOTP's minor league module simply does whatever the milbteams.csv and milbleagues.csv files tell it to do, chaotic or not

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by thehef

Actually, OOTP's minor league structures are pretty realistic.

That's the issue. Some people who buy the game are unpleasantly surprised when they discover that it's "pretty realistic" and not 100% accurate in this area. Obviously, there is no way to create 100% accuracy with historical minors, and I have no issue with it, but using phrases such as "real minor leagues" causes confusion and can be a bit misleading.

It would be good to add an in-game text tip or update the feature description to set better expectations and make it clear how it really functions. It could be something like this:

"Import and maintain minor leagues based on available historical data (approximate and not 100% accurate)."

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by thehef

It depends upon whether you have historical transactions enabled. OOTP doesn't have historical txns for minor leaguers. However, for players who at some point made the major leagues, if they have organizational changes in their history, those transactions are in the historical txns database. So in the case of Bobby Bonilla:

1. He will import into the Pirates organization for 1981.
2. He will moved to the White Sox organization on 12/10/85 (due to the real life Rule 5 draft).
3. He will be moved to the Pirates organization on 7/23/86 (due to the real life trade).
4. ... and so forth...

Another example, Reggie Smith:

1. He'll import to the Twins organization for 1963.
2. He'll be moved to the Red Sox organization on 12/2/63 (due to him being purchased by Boston IRL).
3. On 10/26/73 he'll be moved to the Cardinals (due to a real life trade).
4. ... etc...



Not sure if this answers your question, but if historical txns are not enabled, then in both the Bonilla and Smith examples, each #1 above will happen, and then what transactions subsequently occur will depend upon what the AI and/or the gamer does with trades, free agent signings, and other transactions.

Yes that answers my questions. I am considering historical minors for my next game without real transactions.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

It would be good to add an in-game text tip or update the feature description to set better expectations and make it clear how it really functions. It could be something like this:

"Import and maintain minor leagues based on available historical data (approximate and not 100% accurate)."

Absolutely. It could also include something like "see the manual, under "Historical Minors... [whatever]" for additional info" ... and that section of the manual can go into a bit more detail about what's included and what is not.

Assuming that in the near future add'l early 20th century minors will be included, that section in the manual could say something like, "Beginning with the 1901 season, all minor leagues where sufficient statistical data is available are included in OOTP. This includes minor leagues such as the International League, Pacific Coast League, American Association, Texas League, Eastern League, Southern League, various incarnations of the Western League and Western Association, and many, many others. A relatively small number of leagues - primarily in the early 20th century - are not included simply because player statistical data is not available."

Or something like that.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Yes that answers my questions. I am considering historical minors for my next game without real transactions.

Cool. Good luck!

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by thehef

Cool. Good luck!

Have to finish the Pirates Moneyball first. Then decide how, in addition to historical minors, I want the next one to be different.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by thehef

Absolutely. It could also include something like "see the manual, under "Historical Minors... [whatever]" for additional info" ... and that section of the manual can go into a bit more detail about what's included and what is not.

Historical minors have been available for at least 4 versions and remain an undocumented feature.

[Pelican]

First off, thank you for the many suggestions and ideas in this thread. I’ve learned things beyond my initial question, all good.

My changes to the 1932 minors, first year of the save, were to switch a couple of AAA teams from MLB franchises that had two, to MLB teams that had none. Similar thing with AA minors. I tried to shift the better players to the “retained” minor league teams, so that it was a “depleted” roster that joined the new organization. I also affiliated a few A level minor league teams, with MLB organizations that seemed short on minor league teams at that option. [I know that, as the Depression worsened, some MLB organizations were barely hanging on, financially. And there were many unaffiliated teams, particularly in the low minors.] And I also changed the cities for a few minor league franchises.

When the calendar turned to 1933, the minor leagues reverted - not to 1932, but an accurate 1933, so far as I can tell. So, my changes were lost. Many of the same “problems” with AAA and AA persisted. And of course the Cardinals have 22 total minor league teams, as IRL, which seems unfair (not a Cardinals fan), when no other team even had ten.

I’ve restored most of my changes in 1933, and have unchecked “historical minors”. Do I need to go under hood and change the csv file on minor league teams, for this to be saved into the 1934 season and forward?

I think I am okay with historical rookies appearing in the year of their MLB debut. Not sure what this would mean, as far as how much “seasoning” they would still need in the minors. Presumably ratings and scouting will suggest what’s needed. But won’t that mean that, eventually, there will not be enough players in the minors? Do I understand that minor league players who never made the majors will not be added, at all? I don’t care if these players would appear as free agents. I could figure out assignments, if I had to, or leave it to the whim of the AI. Do I have a choice?

Again, I appreciate the responses and help on this.

And Happy Thanksgiving to all!!

[thehef]

I've never done a sim where I've unchecked historical minors after a season or more... That said, here's what I think will happen:

1. Major league players will import to your game in the year of their MLB debut, no longer in the year of their pro debut.

2. 1st year pro's will no longer debut to their minor-league team; you won't get any career minor leaguers, and a guy who, say, debuted as a minor-leaguer at age 19 but didn't make the MLB until age 28 will not debut in your game until age 28, as a major leaguer... (this is basically a restating of #1, but focusses on minor-leaguers; IOW, it may be important to note that you will be importing many fewer players each year, and the bulk of players will be importing to your game at an older age).

3. Your minor league structure will remain static as of the end of your 1933 season, in perpetuity, unless you manually change it or enable some sort of evolution. (So no, you don't need to dive into the milbteams.csv or milbleagues.csv to keep your 1933 changes, since OOTP does not use these csv files if minor leagues are disabled.)

OOTP's minor league module is currently an all-or-none prospect. You want the minor-league players? You must accept the structure. And vice-versa. That said, the workaround of editing the csv files is not that difficult... Given what you want to accomplish, should you decide to start this project over at some point, I'd recommend a pretty simple edit to the milbteams.csv file. That would handle it pretty nicely And if you have any questions on how to do that, don't hesitate to ask

[Pelican]

Many thanks. I may take you up on that offer. I’m having fun with this sim, but at the same time I’m tempted to start over and edit those files. My goal has been to avoid the collapse of a great A’s team and sell-off of players, due to the Depression financial pressure. Also to integrate baseball fifteen years early. And yes, to spread the minor league teams somewhat evenly among the sixteen major league franchises.

That raises a somewhat unrelated minor league question. The 1932 Pacific Coast League has eight independent teams, full of some interesting players; although their OOTP ratings are low, compared to MLB - even for the best players. Yet, this is where all three DiMaggio brothers started, and Ted Williams. Why didn’t more major league teams scout aggressively and buy the better players? Lack of money? Did PCL vets resist coming east to play? In my 1932 Season, a number of weak MLB teams purchased the contracts of good PCL players, with mixed results. Of course, this was in the midst of Negro League players getting signed by MLB teams, as well. I just have trouble understanding how the PCL managed to survive for many years as an independent, but AAA-level, league. I guess in the years when travel was by train, it just was not feasible to expand to the West Coast, and players there tended to stay?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Pelican

That raises a somewhat unrelated minor league question. The 1932 Pacific Coast League has eight independent teams, full of some interesting players; although their OOTP ratings are low, compared to MLB - even for the best players. Yet, this is where all three DiMaggio brothers started, and Ted Williams. Why didn’t more major league teams scout aggressively and buy the better players?

Before minor league teams started to officially affiliate with MLB teams, there were often unofficial affiliations. In addition, an affiliation - official or otherwise - was not needed for an MLB team to send a player to a minor league team for seasoning...

MLB teams did scout and purchase PCL players. Many examples exist, including the DiMaggio brothers. But this was affected by the various PCL owners' philosophies. Some preferred to develop young players and then sell to MLB teams for as much as they could get. Others liked to build their roster around former MLBers and other vets who couldn't quite cut in the MLB.

Originally Posted by Pelican

Did PCL vets resist coming east to play?

Some did. Some simply preferred being stars in a (mostly) nice-weather league that played a longer schedule, where they could earn more money than they could being riff-raff in the majors...

Originally Posted by Pelican

I just have trouble understanding how the PCL managed to survive for many years as an independent, but AAA-level, league. I guess in the years when travel was by train, it just was not feasible to expand to the West Coast, and players there tended to stay?

The PCL - even in its golden years - was not without its financial troubles. However, one huge advantage it had over the other top minor leagues - namely, the International League and the American Association - is that geographically it occupied a completely different area of the U.S. map. For many years the PCL functioned as a near-major league, whereas the IL and AA were clearly subordinate to the American and National Leagues.

If interested, I highly recommend Dennis Snelling's "The Greatest Minor League: A History of the Pacific Coast League, 1903-1957." You can likely find a free pdf of it online with a pretty quick search (it appears to be legit free, not pirated or whatever...). It goes into a lot of detail re the very things about which you are curious I found it fascinating

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Pelican

Many thanks. I may take you up on that offer. I’m having fun with this sim, but at the same time I’m tempted to start over and edit those files. My goal has been to avoid the collapse of a great A’s team and sell-off of players, due to the Depression financial pressure. Also to integrate baseball fifteen years early. And yes, to spread the minor league teams somewhat evenly among the sixteen major league franchises.

Oh, and you're welcome! And just in case you're wondering, as long as you have some basic Excel skills, the changes to the file - in your case (only changing affiliates) - would be very simple. The prep - the research you might have to do (or have already done) to determine what affiliates to change or reassign - might be extensive, but the changes to the file would then be really easy.

[Brad K]

I bought 23 and have been experimenting with full minors and 22 and 23. I want players to appear in the game for their first season in organized ball rather than in their first MLB year, which requires historical minors. However historical minors allows career minor leaguers to reach the majors. I don't see a way to block this.

I suppose this is OK most of the time... lots of time the cup of coffee players weren't necessarily the best player in AAA but instead were the best uninjured player in AAA. However I've seen a couple career minor leaguers rated 2.5 stars which is excessive. Perhaps its TCR.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Brad K

However historical minors allows career minor leaguers to reach the majors. I don't see a way to block this.

Even as an option, I don't see how this could work. I mean, from a stats & ratings perspective, what's the difference between a truly career minor leaguer, and another guy whose spent his entire career in the minors except for a brief appearance or two in the Show. All other things being equal, the difference between the two players' ratings would be negligible, with each just as likely or unlikely as the other to make the majors.

Originally Posted by Brad K

I suppose this is OK most of the time... lots of time the cup of coffee players weren't necessarily the best player in AAA but instead were the best uninjured player in AAA. However I've seen a couple career minor leaguers rated 2.5 stars which is excessive. Perhaps its TCR.

How much TCR are you using?