Can the Mets keep the Miracle going after 1969?

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 06:12 AM

1969 was the first year I followed baseball fan, and even though I was a Yankees fan (RIP Joe Pepitone), it was impossible to grow up in the NY area and not be caught up in the excitement of the Miracle Mets.

After 1969, the team showed it was not quite a fluke (that 1969 team is very under-rated historically in my view, winning 100 games, sweeping the Braves and then taking four straight from the historically awesome Orioles after losing the first game of the World Series), by contending for some years after that. They even sneaked into another pennant in 1973, though barely breaking .500.

Still, there is a sense that more was possible: After all, in the worst trade not involving Babe Ruth they traded Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi who was washed up by that point. They had Ken Singleton and Tim Foli on their 1970 roster.

What might have been?

I have decided to start playing the Mets beginning in the 1970 season with a few rules:

1. Don't trade Ryan, Singleton or Foli
2. Don't trade Seaver or Koosman or Tug McGraw
3. Ed Kranepool MUST play out his career as a Met. He is THE career Met player after all as this great Don Lagreca rant - THE GREATEST polemic by anyone ever on any subject, makes clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzgpbE3xrE

4. Try to keep Jerry Grote, Bud Harrelson, Tommie Agee and Cleon Jones even into being useful bench players if at all possible.

5. No unfair or uneasonable trades with the AI (Houston keeps trying to trade me Doug Rader for not enough in return.

This leaves Mike Jorgenson and maybe some bench players as tradeable commodities to improve the team. But the Mets, like the 70s Astros or the Indians are better if they don't trade then if they do in most cases.

Obviously, the principle at work here is to have a Big Three of Seaver, Ryan and Koosman with Tug McGraw in the bullpen. Also, the team must continue to be at core the team of the 1969-early 70s Mets. A trade here or there, a substitution, but without Kranepool, Harrelson, Grote, Agee and Cleon it is not the Mets any longer, at least for a few years. At least through 1973-4 I would say.

With Foli and Singleton able to pick up the slack in the next few seasons, there is good reason to think the team can be strong.

For now, RF is the Shamsky/Swoboda platoon, and 1B is Clendennon and Kranepool. Wayne Garrett and Joe Foy is the 3B platoon and Garrett is ok, we need a better RH 3B or else a trade of both for a full time 3B. Not sure which to go with. We'll see what's offered.

I have injuries on, 3-year recalc, player development off and the same with all the clubhouse/team morale/personality stuff, off, Finances off. Five rounds of new player draft. Trades are set to two clicks more difficult than center and also for preference for prospects.

Here goes.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 06:42 AM

In a slight variation history, I got Rusty Staub and Balor Moore in exchange for Mike Jorgensen,Rich Folkers, Jim McAndrew and Rod Gaspar.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 06:48 AM

So Staub will start in RF and Shamsky and Swoboda now become bench strength - LH and RH pinch hitters and back up OFs. Moore will be a starter in the near future and a spot starter in the meantime. Ryan will replace McAndrew in the rotation. Ray Sadecki is on the roster to start 1970 and will be the fifth starter after Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, Gentry. The bullpen is Don Cardwell who is also emergency SP, McGraw, Frisella, Ron Taylor and Cal Koonce.

I also picked up Marv Staehle in the trade.

A major weakness is that Moore is the ONLY pitcher in the minors. I need to make another trade to have some P backup in the minors (I am using AAA, AA and A minors instead of a reserve list).

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 07:00 AM

I was able to trade Staehle for Jim Bouton - not a great pickup, but if we need a Starter in case of injury he can make a few starts. If someone goes down for the season, he won't be adequate and I will need to trade real value for value. But for now that gives us a little more depth. Plus he is just coming off his "Ball Four" season, another thing linked to 1969.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 06:48 PM

Well, after Don Cardwell went down for 6-8 months, showing that the Bouton trade was useful as the latter is now our long relief spot starter guy, Jerry Koosman was injured for the rest of the season with our record 22-21. This is a major hit of course. I had no choice but to trade the last tradeable asset we have without cutting into our real core team - minor league SS Ted Martinez, getting Tony Cloninger from the Reds. So Cloninger with some starts by Bouton will have to cover Koosman's spot in the rotation for 1970. Ugh. The Big Three experiment has not yet gotten off the ground.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 07:03 PM

Gary Gentry then went down for a month! The whole thing looked hopeless for 1970, and indeed about midway we were 13 back of the Pirates.

But...far from being washed up, Jim Bouton went an astounding 8-3 with a 3.96 ERA and Tony Cloninger a respectable 8-9 with a 4.50 ERA and with our record at 83-67 and us having pulled to withing 7 of Pittsburgh with 12 games to go, Gary Gentry came off the injured list.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 07:06 PM

With 8 games left to play, we are 6 and a half back. Still alive. Unlikely that we can make it up and catch the Pirates, but this team just pulled off a Miracle one season ago, so who knows? But clearly, had we had Koosman all season, we would have been right in the midst of the pennant race.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 07:12 PM

We ended up 91-71, six games back of the Pirates, in second place. Along with the Pirates, the Orioles, Royals and Giants won their divisions. The Big Red Machine came in third in the NL West.

Mets highlights: Staub hit 24 homers, though only .249, Tommy Agee .274 18 homers, Cleon Jones .291 14 HRs, Donn Clendenon led the team with 31 HRs.

Seaver went 20-5, 3.11 ERA, Nolan Ryan 14-9, Bouton 8-5, Gentry 10-12, Sadecki 8-10.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 07:16 PM

Elsewhere, true to life, Alex Johnson .352, and Rico Carty .340 won the batting titles. Lee May of Cincinnati and Frank Howard of Washington each hit 43 homers to lead each league. Reggie and Harmon hit 40. Vida Blue won 17 and Mike Cuellar had 16 Complete Games, Juan Marichal and Gaylord Perry each won 19 for SF. Seaver and Sudden Sam McDowell had the most Ks in each league, 236 and 247 respectively.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 07:16 PM

The Pirates swept the Orioles in the World Series of 1970.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 07:27 PM

In the first-year player draft, Jon Matlack got drafted before we got a chance to pick, The quality fell sharply after that.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 08:01 PM

Traded Dave Marshall OF for Danny Cater to get more depth at 3rd base. I will platoon him and Wayne Garrett.

With Koosman back, our Big Three rotation is set again for 1971, with Gary Gentry and Ray Sadecki holding the 4 and 5 spots. Should either faulter, Doyle Alexander, Jim Barr, Tony Cloninger and maybe Jim Bouton of Ball Four and knuckleball fame are there to take up the slack. In the meantime, Doyle and Tony will be in the bullpen, along with Tug, Taylor and Frisella. The others will be in AAA unless needed in NY.

We are going to need a CF after this season as Agee will only really be a backup after that. Not sure how to make that happen. Singleton and Staub and Jones are all natural LF, RFers. Cleon, with good range, may have to be the default CF in 1972-3, but we have time before then, and for now it's Cleon, Agee and Staub in the OF, with a good bench of Singleton, Shamsky and Swoboda, though only Swoboda has any CF ratings.

italyprof · 03-18-2023, 08:07 PM

I stupidly left the team with only Grote and Duffy Dyer as catchers. Grote was injured in Spring training 1971 and is out for two weeks. So I traded Al Weis for John Roseboro. He and Dyer will share the catching in the first week or so of the season.

Brad K · 03-18-2023, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by italyprof

We ended up 91-71, six games back of the Pirates, in second place. Along with the Pirates, the Orioles, Royals and Giants won their divisions. The Big Red Machine came in third in the NL West.

Mets highlights: Staub hit 24 homers, though only .249, Tommy Agee .274 18 homers, Cleon Jones .291 14 HRs, Donn Clendenon led the team with 31 HRs.

Seaver went 20-5, 3.11 ERA, Nolan Ryan 14-9, Bouton 8-5, Gentry 10-12, Sadecki 8-10.

I've found a cheap veteran player who has an unexpectedly good year is an important part of success.

Nice to see Clendenon hit 31. HIs best RL season was 28 of which 25 were on the road and only 3 at Forbes Field.

italyprof · 03-20-2023, 06:58 AM

Thanks BradK, good point. I will post the '71 season in a few days. Traveling for work today and tomorrow.

Edster007 · 03-20-2023, 11:46 AM

Following this with interest. The first game I ever attended was in August of 70 at Shea. The Mets dropped both ends of a doubleheader to the Padres on Banner Day. Besides the two loses, I was disappointed to not see Seaver or Koosman pitch.

The Mets were shutout in the first game and were tied at 2 heading to the 8th inning of game two when the Padres hit 2 solo homeruns and went on to win 4-2

italyprof · 03-22-2023, 11:39 AM

The Mets started the season in the pennant race for 1971, with the Phillies and Pittsburgh also starting out strong. Then, with their record 18-13, Tug McGraw went down with an injury for four months. Meaning he is out till mid-September. A serious blow. Balor Moore is called up to be our LH reliever and Taylor is back as stopper.

italyprof · 03-22-2023, 11:45 AM

We've stayed right on the heels of the Pirates led by Roberto Clemente who leads the league in batting at .366 and RBI at 36, for all of May, finding ourselves 2 1/2 back on June 1 with a record of 29-20. Seaver is 9-1 with a 2.51 ERA, but Koosman and Ryan are struggling, with a combined 9-8 and ERAs around 4.00. Our second best so far is Gentry at 6-2 with a 2.69 ERA, and only Frisella has been effective in the pen, so he is now listed as Stopper.

All 6 OFs have started out hitting well, either with avg. or power or both. Foli has done well as backup to all three non 1B IF positions. So, some good signs. But we need to bullpen and our 2 and 3 starters to get hot.

italyprof · 03-22-2023, 12:01 PM

At the end of June, the Phillies offered us Jim Bunning for Ed Kranepool. But I can't trade Kranepool - it's one of the rules - the team has to still resemble the Mets, even if I make some personnel changes here and there.

Anyway, Bunning, once excellent, and I think he pitched a no-hitter against the Mets at one point, forget the year, is not any better right now than any of our own five starters. So we said no.

italyprof · 03-22-2023, 12:15 PM

At the start of July, we were still in 2nd, but now 6 and a half back, 7 in the loss column.

But things looked up in many ways: all five bullpen guys had ERAs under 4.00, and the rotation went like this:

Seaver 12-3 2.67
Koosman 8-5 3.58
Ryan 4-9 4.01
Gentry 9-3 2.57
Sadecki 4-6 3.95

Clendennon and Kranepool were each hitting over .280 with 9 homers between them. Cleon .295 7 homers. Young rookie Singleton .286, Agee .266 11 HR, Staub .247 9 homers, Shamsky .233 5 HR, Swobody .261 but no HR.

03-18-2023, 06:12 AM	#1
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	Can the Mets keep the Miracle going after 1969? 1969 was the first year I followed baseball fan, and even though I was a Yankees fan (RIP Joe Pepitone), it was impossible to grow up in the NY area and not be caught up in the excitement of the Miracle Mets. After 1969, the team showed it was not quite a fluke (that 1969 team is very under-rated historically in my view, winning 100 games, sweeping the Braves and then taking four straight from the historically awesome Orioles after losing the first game of the World Series), by contending for some years after that. They even sneaked into another pennant in 1973, though barely breaking .500. Still, there is a sense that more was possible: After all, in the worst trade not involving Babe Ruth they traded Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi who was washed up by that point. They had Ken Singleton and Tim Foli on their 1970 roster. What might have been? I have decided to start playing the Mets beginning in the 1970 season with a few rules: 1. Don't trade Ryan, Singleton or Foli 2. Don't trade Seaver or Koosman or Tug McGraw 3. Ed Kranepool MUST play out his career as a Met. He is THE career Met player after all as this great Don Lagreca rant - THE GREATEST polemic by anyone ever on any subject, makes clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzgpbE3xrE 4. Try to keep Jerry Grote, Bud Harrelson, Tommie Agee and Cleon Jones even into being useful bench players if at all possible. 5. No unfair or uneasonable trades with the AI (Houston keeps trying to trade me Doug Rader for not enough in return. This leaves Mike Jorgenson and maybe some bench players as tradeable commodities to improve the team. But the Mets, like the 70s Astros or the Indians are better if they don't trade then if they do in most cases. Obviously, the principle at work here is to have a Big Three of Seaver, Ryan and Koosman with Tug McGraw in the bullpen. Also, the team must continue to be at core the team of the 1969-early 70s Mets. A trade here or there, a substitution, but without Kranepool, Harrelson, Grote, Agee and Cleon it is not the Mets any longer, at least for a few years. At least through 1973-4 I would say. With Foli and Singleton able to pick up the slack in the next few seasons, there is good reason to think the team can be strong. For now, RF is the Shamsky/Swoboda platoon, and 1B is Clendennon and Kranepool. Wayne Garrett and Joe Foy is the 3B platoon and Garrett is ok, we need a better RH 3B or else a trade of both for a full time 3B. Not sure which to go with. We'll see what's offered. I have injuries on, 3-year recalc, player development off and the same with all the clubhouse/team morale/personality stuff, off, Finances off. Five rounds of new player draft. Trades are set to two clicks more difficult than center and also for preference for prospects. Here goes. Last edited by italyprof; 03-18-2023 at 06:36 AM.

03-18-2023, 06:48 AM	#3
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	So Staub will start in RF and Shamsky and Swoboda now become bench strength - LH and RH pinch hitters and back up OFs. Moore will be a starter in the near future and a spot starter in the meantime. Ryan will replace McAndrew in the rotation. Ray Sadecki is on the roster to start 1970 and will be the fifth starter after Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, Gentry. The bullpen is Don Cardwell who is also emergency SP, McGraw, Frisella, Ron Taylor and Cal Koonce. I also picked up Marv Staehle in the trade. A major weakness is that Moore is the ONLY pitcher in the minors. I need to make another trade to have some P backup in the minors (I am using AAA, AA and A minors instead of a reserve list). Last edited by italyprof; 03-18-2023 at 06:59 AM.

03-18-2023, 06:42 AM	#2
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	In a slight variation history, I got Rusty Staub and Balor Moore in exchange for Mike Jorgensen,Rich Folkers, Jim McAndrew and Rod Gaspar.

03-18-2023, 07:00 AM	#4
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	I was able to trade Staehle for Jim Bouton - not a great pickup, but if we need a Starter in case of injury he can make a few starts. If someone goes down for the season, he won't be adequate and I will need to trade real value for value. But for now that gives us a little more depth. Plus he is just coming off his "Ball Four" season, another thing linked to 1969.

03-18-2023, 06:48 PM	#5
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	Well, after Don Cardwell went down for 6-8 months, showing that the Bouton trade was useful as the latter is now our long relief spot starter guy, Jerry Koosman was injured for the rest of the season with our record 22-21. This is a major hit of course. I had no choice but to trade the last tradeable asset we have without cutting into our real core team - minor league SS Ted Martinez, getting Tony Cloninger from the Reds. So Cloninger with some starts by Bouton will have to cover Koosman's spot in the rotation for 1970. Ugh. The Big Three experiment has not yet gotten off the ground.

03-18-2023, 07:03 PM	#6
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	Gary Gentry then went down for a month! The whole thing looked hopeless for 1970, and indeed about midway we were 13 back of the Pirates. But...far from being washed up, Jim Bouton went an astounding 8-3 with a 3.96 ERA and Tony Cloninger a respectable 8-9 with a 4.50 ERA and with our record at 83-67 and us having pulled to withing 7 of Pittsburgh with 12 games to go, Gary Gentry came off the injured list.

03-18-2023, 07:06 PM	#7
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	With 8 games left to play, we are 6 and a half back. Still alive. Unlikely that we can make it up and catch the Pirates, but this team just pulled off a Miracle one season ago, so who knows? But clearly, had we had Koosman all season, we would have been right in the midst of the pennant race.

03-18-2023, 07:12 PM	#8
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	We ended up 91-71, six games back of the Pirates, in second place. Along with the Pirates, the Orioles, Royals and Giants won their divisions. The Big Red Machine came in third in the NL West. Mets highlights: Staub hit 24 homers, though only .249, Tommy Agee .274 18 homers, Cleon Jones .291 14 HRs, Donn Clendenon led the team with 31 HRs. Seaver went 20-5, 3.11 ERA, Nolan Ryan 14-9, Bouton 8-5, Gentry 10-12, Sadecki 8-10.

03-18-2023, 07:16 PM	#9
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	Elsewhere, true to life, Alex Johnson .352, and Rico Carty .340 won the batting titles. Lee May of Cincinnati and Frank Howard of Washington each hit 43 homers to lead each league. Reggie and Harmon hit 40. Vida Blue won 17 and Mike Cuellar had 16 Complete Games, Juan Marichal and Gaylord Perry each won 19 for SF. Seaver and Sudden Sam McDowell had the most Ks in each league, 236 and 247 respectively.

03-18-2023, 07:27 PM	#11
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	In the first-year player draft, Jon Matlack got drafted before we got a chance to pick, The quality fell sharply after that.

03-18-2023, 08:01 PM	#12
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	Traded Dave Marshall OF for Danny Cater to get more depth at 3rd base. I will platoon him and Wayne Garrett. With Koosman back, our Big Three rotation is set again for 1971, with Gary Gentry and Ray Sadecki holding the 4 and 5 spots. Should either faulter, Doyle Alexander, Jim Barr, Tony Cloninger and maybe Jim Bouton of Ball Four and knuckleball fame are there to take up the slack. In the meantime, Doyle and Tony will be in the bullpen, along with Tug, Taylor and Frisella. The others will be in AAA unless needed in NY. We are going to need a CF after this season as Agee will only really be a backup after that. Not sure how to make that happen. Singleton and Staub and Jones are all natural LF, RFers. Cleon, with good range, may have to be the default CF in 1972-3, but we have time before then, and for now it's Cleon, Agee and Staub in the OF, with a good bench of Singleton, Shamsky and Swoboda, though only Swoboda has any CF ratings.

03-18-2023, 08:07 PM	#13
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	I stupidly left the team with only Grote and Duffy Dyer as catchers. Grote was injured in Spring training 1971 and is out for two weeks. So I traded Al Weis for John Roseboro. He and Dyer will share the catching in the first week or so of the season.

03-20-2023, 06:58 AM	#15
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	Thanks BradK, good point. I will post the '71 season in a few days. Traveling for work today and tomorrow.

03-20-2023, 11:46 AM	#16
Edster007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,759	Following this with interest. The first game I ever attended was in August of 70 at Shea. The Mets dropped both ends of a doubleheader to the Padres on Banner Day. Besides the two loses, I was disappointed to not see Seaver or Koosman pitch. The Mets were shutout in the first game and were tied at 2 heading to the 8th inning of game two when the Padres hit 2 solo homeruns and went on to win 4-2

03-22-2023, 11:39 AM	#17
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	The Mets started the season in the pennant race for 1971, with the Phillies and Pittsburgh also starting out strong. Then, with their record 18-13, Tug McGraw went down with an injury for four months. Meaning he is out till mid-September. A serious blow. Balor Moore is called up to be our LH reliever and Taylor is back as stopper.

03-22-2023, 11:45 AM	#18
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	We've stayed right on the heels of the Pirates led by Roberto Clemente who leads the league in batting at .366 and RBI at 36, for all of May, finding ourselves 2 1/2 back on June 1 with a record of 29-20. Seaver is 9-1 with a 2.51 ERA, but Koosman and Ryan are struggling, with a combined 9-8 and ERAs around 4.00. Our second best so far is Gentry at 6-2 with a 2.69 ERA, and only Frisella has been effective in the pen, so he is now listed as Stopper. All 6 OFs have started out hitting well, either with avg. or power or both. Foli has done well as backup to all three non 1B IF positions. So, some good signs. But we need to bullpen and our 2 and 3 starters to get hot.

03-22-2023, 12:01 PM	#19
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	At the end of June, the Phillies offered us Jim Bunning for Ed Kranepool. But I can't trade Kranepool - it's one of the rules - the team has to still resemble the Mets, even if I make some personnel changes here and there. Anyway, Bunning, once excellent, and I think he pitched a no-hitter against the Mets at one point, forget the year, is not any better right now than any of our own five starters. So we said no.

03-22-2023, 12:15 PM	#20
italyprof All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,024	At the start of July, we were still in 2nd, but now 6 and a half back, 7 in the loss column. But things looked up in many ways: all five bullpen guys had ERAs under 4.00, and the rotation went like this: Seaver 12-3 2.67 Koosman 8-5 3.58 Ryan 4-9 4.01 Gentry 9-3 2.57 Sadecki 4-6 3.95 Clendennon and Kranepool were each hitting over .280 with 9 homers between them. Cleon .295 7 homers. Young rookie Singleton .286, Agee .266 11 HR, Staub .247 9 homers, Shamsky .233 5 HR, Swobody .261 but no HR.