pre-1901 MLB with historical transactions, etc.

thehef · 08-24-2023, 04:45 PM

Starting a new thread so as not to further hijack the "Historical database issues go here!" thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

The transaction database works with the 19th century since I use it... all you need to do is select the option in the advance options when you create your game (not after because it won't show until 1901). The rookie players also go with the team they are suppose to go to (except that you will have to move some manually). Never had a team runs out of players in the simulations I do...

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

Very interesting. Could you please explain your process in detail? Also, I'm assuming that your initial rosters are still random and players don't initially import to their historically correct team, right? (Actually, now that I think about that, that would have to be the case since pre-1901 teams in OOTP are not historically correct.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

When I create my historical league in 1871... I go to the advance options before finalizing it to select "use real transaction" and the transaction will work fine (if you don't select the option before you won't be able to use it until 1901.

Of course you must manually change the teams and league format every seasons until 1901 or it won't work. After a season when the game created it's new structure compare with the real season and correct everything, by example in 1872 Rockford become Baltimore which isn't true so what you must do is wrote the historical team and franchise id for the Baltimore team and rewrote everything back with the Rockford info (you left both id empty since you will delete the team January first), when this is done create a new team for Baltimore with the id you wrote before. Don't forgot to move the rookie players to BAL who will be with ROK (in that case there isn't one) and don't forget to load the correct schedule and move all the teams in their correct leagues.

This sound complicated but after a while you get use to it... just backup your league before the off season so you will be able to restart if you do an error.

The image is all the teams who were in my league (1871 / 1913) and as you can see everything is historically accurate (except for the win/loss record and championship of course).

thehef · 08-24-2023, 04:47 PM

Are you using the Wizard to create your game? I don't see any other way to at least start the process of creating a historical game... Once I advance to Step 2 of the Wizard, I can then choose Advanced Mode, go the Historical panel, and enabled Historical Transactions. However, at that point, I don't know how to either a) return to the Wizard to finish creating my game, or b) finish creating my game from the Advanced section. If the process is b), do I just go through all panels & make my selections, and then return to the Create Game panel on the far left and select Start Game?

At any rate, I'm now wondering about making mods to the teams.csv file in order to minimize the work needing to be done each season. I've found in testing that as long as you maintain the not-necessarily-historical structure that OOTP uses for pre-1901, you're fine with any other changes you make to the file, such as to the teams themselves.

For example, the real MLB structure in 1898 was a 12-team NL, whereas OOTP has an 8-team AL & 8-team NL. So you could edit the teams.csv file to have all 12 1898 historical MLB teams, but you'd to distribute them into OOTP's AL & NL format, and come up with / leave in the file 4 add'l teams. At least that's what I recall from testing and monkeying around with this...

AESP_pres · 08-24-2023, 08:03 PM

Create your game as you'd usually do with an historical simulation and select 1871. When all your option are selected (including the transaction) just push the green start game button. Don't forget to transfer all the teams in the NL after it's done if you want the real structure of the Major League and change your schedule for the 1871 one.

For the CSV file this isn't my expertise at all... this is why I do everything manually. From what I've understand they have change the file this year so it doesn't really work anymore with a created file (I think it's the problem BaseballMan have with this year version).

The way I do (which is more works than a file sadly) for 1898 to follow your example is just the NL with 12 teams and an empty AL (if you have more than one team in the league it will create a scheduling error since you can't have a league without a schedule).

thehef · 08-24-2023, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

Create your game as you'd usually do with an historical simulation and select 1871. When all your option are selected (including the transaction) just push the green start game button. Don't forget to transfer all the teams in the NL after it's done if you want the real structure of the Major League and change your schedule for the 1871 one.

The way I usually create the game is with the historical wizard. I just tried and it does not give me the option (either during the wizard or afterwards, when I to League Settings > Historical) to select historical transactions.

So I think you are using the Advanced mode all the way through, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

For the CSV file this isn't my expertise at all... this is why I do everything manually. From what I've understand they have change the file this year so it doesn't really work anymore with a created file (I think it's the problem BaseballMan have with this year version).

I've done some testing with this and it works. There may, though, be something that Baseball Man did that no longer works. Not sure what that is... I know that you can't change the structure (has to be two leagues) to match history and expect that to work; OOTP will create the other league, etc...

AESP_pres · 08-24-2023, 10:36 PM

I create via the historical mode and go to advance mode when the last screen shows up (when the save game appear) from there I change the stuff I need to change in the other options (transaction is in the historical tab I think).

thehef · 08-24-2023, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

I create via the historical mode and go to advance mode when the last screen shows up (when the save game appear) from there I change the stuff I need to change in the other options (transaction is in the historical tab I think).

Thanks for the clarification! I'll report back and some point when I do some testing with the modified teams.csv file...

BaseballMan · 08-24-2023, 11:20 PM

This could be very useful.
I did see that if you start a league like AESP_pres said, the game handled historical transactions correctly for the first year.
However when going to the next year and you change to 1901 i get the rookies for 1901.
Do i need to go to offseason with the current year and just set it to 1901 to sim the season?
Does changing it to 1901 mess up any league settings or modifiers?
How did you handle players that played on teams the database does not have like some 1884 teams.
How did you get the rookies from those teams?
Im not sure i understand why ootp cant allow historical transactions to work if the data is already there.
Why change team history and do a fictional history when the actual history would work.
Changing the teams to a diffrent league in the teams csv seems to work so it would be easy to change the teams
if someone perferred AL and NL for 19th century like the game has now.
Anyway to get a printout of the historical transactions.
I'd like to see how mine matches up without having to read line by line on a monitor.

luckymann · 08-25-2023, 01:28 AM

There was, a few years back, an awesome thread from Tiger Fan about what is required to properly follow the pre-1901 historical in a way that seamlessly joins the modern era in 1901. I don't have the link nor know if it is still relevant a few versions later, but it might be worth your hunting it down to see if it is of any use.

G

AESP_pres · 08-25-2023, 08:39 AM

If you start in 1871 (and probably any 19th century seasons) like I said the transaction file will load every January first (you will see it in the historical transaction tab).

I created all the missing teams manually and the transactions for those teams work the same as it does for the others (as long as you use the correct historical and franchise id for them)... even the UL and PL work fine if you feel like creating them in 1884 and 1890, you will have to move all the players manually after creating the teams but the trade will happen.

For the rookie player they go to the team they are supposed to if the team exist in the game (by example Boston) but for the team manually created at the end of a season you have to put them manually in the correct team (by example for BRA in 1872 the rookie will be in the defunct CHI team).

Of course for this to work you must manually edit the league structure every seasons to get what the real life ML was that year.

Also I forgot to say that you must check "prevent any AI change" before the 1871 off season or the teams will sign free agents (there is no transaction database loaded before the January first 1872).

I don't understand what you meant by 1901... I create my league in 1871 and after the seasons happen as usual (just do all the change when the off season start).

BaseballMan · 08-25-2023, 11:25 AM

I was trying to see if I could turn historical transactions on for a current league. It seems you only get the option after changing the year to 1901 for leagues you've already created.
I am able to set turn on historical transactions in creating a league.

AESP_pres · 08-25-2023, 12:19 PM

Yeah the option became no longer available after you finish the league creation (same for the line-up option, not that it makes a difference since real one aren't available until 1901 anyway).

Edit: Completly unrelated BaseballMan but do you have a file that say exactly when a player was really on a team... that would be so practical to have better results. I ask because I know that your line-up are more in line with the real one from that period. I just take Fort Wayne as an exemple who had players who drop left and right in real life... players who were fired mid-season or came for a game or two.

thehef · 08-25-2023, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Anyway to get a printout of the historical transactions.
I'd like to see how mine matches up without having to read line by line on a monitor.

Maybe the attached will be helpful. Note that it's from March of this year, so it's possible that some txns have been added/updated since then. Doubtful, though, that many (if any) changes have been made to pre-1901, so this should be good...

Also note that the final column, fake trans date, takes all pre-1901 dates and makes them post-1900 dates. IOW, a date of 1/1/1872 becomes 1/1/1972 and a 7/7/1877 becomes 7/7/1977. This column is only there for sorting purposes - because Excel doesn't recognize pre-1901 dates as dates - and should otherwise be ignored.

BaseballMan · 08-25-2023, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

Yeah the option became no longer available after you finish the league creation (same for the line-up option, not that it makes a difference since real one aren't available until 1901 anyway).

Edit: Completly unrelated BaseballMan but do you have a file that say exactly when a player was really on a team... that would be so practical to have better results. I ask because I know that your line-up are more in line with the real one from that period. I just take Fort Wayne as an exemple who had players who drop left and right in real life... players who were fired mid-season or came for a game or two.

I have a spreadsheet with all the player moves, managers and owners as well. Though i had to guess at some of the early owners.
Right now i'm concentrating on making sure the pitchers are on the correct teams when they were scheduled to start in the real leagues.
I'd like to be able to make sure all teams had a player at every position for every game but thats a bit tricky in that players a lot of different positions and the game doesn't really know what to do with them.
Like when the game will you use a position player to start over a pitcher.
Thats why i went to the actual starting pitcher for that scheduled game.

This basically what i use. I did have it separated into different spreadsheets for players and managers and starting pitchers but its easier in just one sheet. I didn't get complicated with different types of trades. I just used a simple player release and a player signed. Though i would love to have that and injury reasons as well. However my goal was to have the players on
the correct teams. I always do the transactions for a day before pplaying any scheduled games and i release a players before signing players.

Like i said its still as work in progress but if anyone finds it useful and wants to use it or add to it go ahead.

BaseballMan · 08-25-2023, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

Maybe the attached will be helpful. Note that it's from March of this year, so it's possible that some txns have been added/updated since then. Doubtful, though, that many (if any) changes have been made to pre-1901, so this should be good...

Also note that the final column, fake trans date, takes all pre-1901 dates and makes them post-1900 dates. IOW, a date of 1/1/1872 becomes 1/1/1972 and a 7/7/1877 becomes 7/7/1977. This column is only there for sorting purposes - because Excel doesn't recognize pre-1901 dates as dates - and should otherwise be ignored.

Thanks.

thehef · 08-25-2023, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I have a spreadsheet with all the player moves, managers and owners as well. Though i had to guess at some of the early owners.

I might be able to fill in any gaps you have in owners. Just let me know which ones...

BaseballMan · 08-25-2023, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

I might be able to fill in any gaps you have in owners. Just let me know which ones...

I'll take whatever you have. Like i said some of mine were a little bit of guessing.

thehef · 08-25-2023, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I'll take whatever you have. Like i said some of mine were a little bit of guessing.

The file is not really ready yet for public distribution (parts of it are still works-in-progress and parts are kind of messy), so I don't want to post it yet. However, I'm happy to send you what I have for the 1800's if you send me a PM with your email addy

BaseballMan · 08-27-2023, 07:46 PM

I was able to get the expansion to follow the real expansion somewhat
I think i didn't edit the teams file enough and i didn't sim far enough
was why it wasn't working for me.
However there are still problems.
Some players rookie years are missing cause the game doesn't have that team for that year.
Hint 1884 Richmond Virginians and Toledo.
I can remove the extra teams that didn't exist for a year.
It doesn't look like those teams had any rookies.
The vets on those teams should already be in the league unless i start my league in that year.
Like say 1884.
I thought about creating the teams i need but then i would have to add the ballparks, players and
maybe check league totals.
Idk it just seems like more work.
So my conclusion at this point is that i may be able to convert my 23 league to 24 in 1893 sim year.
At that point there are no missing teams just the extra teams.
However if there were rookies on those extra teams then that throws a monkey wrench in my idea.

AESP_pres · 08-28-2023, 05:40 PM

The 1884 missing team is also a problem in 1890... This is a frustrating problem since they know about it since the release of this year version. Contrary to the other seasons I have to created teams since the game doesn't they're a bigger problem with those two seasons: the players don't have their stat line in their history. That wasn't a problem at all with the previous versions of the game but they found a way to F it up this year.

What's frustrating is that we are almost in September and that haven't been fixed yet, but of course every little non game breaking "bug" in the card version of the game is fixed immediately... Yes I call that database mess game breaking because if you want realist result you must go back to OOTP 23 to copy all the data from those players edit screen in OOTP24 and it doesn't work that well since all those players will under perform in 1884 and 1890 if they play for one of those missing teams.

BaseballMan · 08-28-2023, 06:50 PM

Yeah it is a bit screwed up.
I wouldn't expect any changes.
They might address the problem in the next version though i seriously doubt.
19th century play isn't really a big focus.
I can't really blame ootp.
But i can blame ootp when it throws a band aid and create a bigger mess.
You still have to manually make adjustments with the current setup.
So whats the point of changing the actual teams?
Couldn't you do the same with the real teams if you wanted?
Would be nice if they allowed both options or if they gave a list and let you decide what historical franchises would come in the league.
Which was what the teams csv file kinda is.
I think that if ootp would add the missing teams or give us the info needed to add them would help a lot.
The players are there in the Master file and you can import them but they are missing their rookie year.
I've tried every which way i can think of to get the 1884 Richmond Virginias to import but so far nothing doing.
It's not a last version case for me and i do understand thats its not that big of priority.
At least i'm not the only one that finds it a bit frustrating.

08-24-2023, 08:03 PM	#3
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,074	Create your game as you'd usually do with an historical simulation and select 1871. When all your option are selected (including the transaction) just push the green start game button. Don't forget to transfer all the teams in the NL after it's done if you want the real structure of the Major League and change your schedule for the 1871 one. For the CSV file this isn't my expertise at all... this is why I do everything manually. From what I've understand they have change the file this year so it doesn't really work anymore with a created file (I think it's the problem BaseballMan have with this year version). The way I do (which is more works than a file sadly) for 1898 to follow your example is just the NL with 12 teams and an empty AL (if you have more than one team in the league it will create a scheduling error since you can't have a league without a schedule). Attached Images __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update. Last edited by AESP_pres; 08-24-2023 at 08:04 PM.

08-24-2023, 10:36 PM	#5
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,074	I create via the historical mode and go to advance mode when the last screen shows up (when the save game appear) from there I change the stuff I need to change in the other options (transaction is in the historical tab I think). __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update.

08-25-2023, 01:28 AM	#8
luckymann Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 13,571	There was, a few years back, an awesome thread from Tiger Fan about what is required to properly follow the pre-1901 historical in a way that seamlessly joins the modern era in 1901. I don't have the link nor know if it is still relevant a few versions later, but it might be worth your hunting it down to see if it is of any use. G __________________ HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE LGB USBA

08-25-2023, 08:39 AM	#9
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,074	If you start in 1871 (and probably any 19th century seasons) like I said the transaction file will load every January first (you will see it in the historical transaction tab). I created all the missing teams manually and the transactions for those teams work the same as it does for the others (as long as you use the correct historical and franchise id for them)... even the UL and PL work fine if you feel like creating them in 1884 and 1890, you will have to move all the players manually after creating the teams but the trade will happen. For the rookie player they go to the team they are supposed to if the team exist in the game (by example Boston) but for the team manually created at the end of a season you have to put them manually in the correct team (by example for BRA in 1872 the rookie will be in the defunct CHI team). Of course for this to work you must manually edit the league structure every seasons to get what the real life ML was that year. Also I forgot to say that you must check "prevent any AI change" before the 1871 off season or the teams will sign free agents (there is no transaction database loaded before the January first 1872). I don't understand what you meant by 1901... I create my league in 1871 and after the seasons happen as usual (just do all the change when the off season start). __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update.

08-25-2023, 12:19 PM	#11
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,074	Yeah the option became no longer available after you finish the league creation (same for the line-up option, not that it makes a difference since real one aren't available until 1901 anyway). Edit: Completly unrelated BaseballMan but do you have a file that say exactly when a player was really on a team... that would be so practical to have better results. I ask because I know that your line-up are more in line with the real one from that period. I just take Fort Wayne as an exemple who had players who drop left and right in real life... players who were fired mid-season or came for a game or two. __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update. Last edited by AESP_pres; 08-25-2023 at 12:25 PM.

08-24-2023, 04:47 PM	#2
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,345	Are you using the Wizard to create your game? I don't see any other way to at least start the process of creating a historical game... Once I advance to Step 2 of the Wizard, I can then choose Advanced Mode, go the Historical panel, and enabled Historical Transactions. However, at that point, I don't know how to either a) return to the Wizard to finish creating my game, or b) finish creating my game from the Advanced section. If the process is b), do I just go through all panels & make my selections, and then return to the Create Game panel on the far left and select Start Game? At any rate, I'm now wondering about making mods to the teams.csv file in order to minimize the work needing to be done each season. I've found in testing that as long as you maintain the not-necessarily-historical structure that OOTP uses for pre-1901, you're fine with any other changes you make to the file, such as to the teams themselves. For example, the real MLB structure in 1898 was a 12-team NL, whereas OOTP has an 8-team AL & 8-team NL. So you could edit the teams.csv file to have all 12 1898 historical MLB teams, but you'd to distribute them into OOTP's AL & NL format, and come up with / leave in the file 4 add'l teams. At least that's what I recall from testing and monkeying around with this...

08-24-2023, 11:20 PM	#7
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,525	This could be very useful. I did see that if you start a league like AESP_pres said, the game handled historical transactions correctly for the first year. However when going to the next year and you change to 1901 i get the rookies for 1901. Do i need to go to offseason with the current year and just set it to 1901 to sim the season? Does changing it to 1901 mess up any league settings or modifiers? How did you handle players that played on teams the database does not have like some 1884 teams. How did you get the rookies from those teams? Im not sure i understand why ootp cant allow historical transactions to work if the data is already there. Why change team history and do a fictional history when the actual history would work. Changing the teams to a diffrent league in the teams csv seems to work so it would be easy to change the teams if someone perferred AL and NL for 19th century like the game has now. Anyway to get a printout of the historical transactions. I'd like to see how mine matches up without having to read line by line on a monitor.

08-25-2023, 11:25 AM	#10
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,525	I was trying to see if I could turn historical transactions on for a current league. It seems you only get the option after changing the year to 1901 for leagues you've already created. I am able to set turn on historical transactions in creating a league.

08-27-2023, 07:46 PM	#18
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,525	I was able to get the expansion to follow the real expansion somewhat I think i didn't edit the teams file enough and i didn't sim far enough was why it wasn't working for me. However there are still problems. Some players rookie years are missing cause the game doesn't have that team for that year. Hint 1884 Richmond Virginians and Toledo. I can remove the extra teams that didn't exist for a year. It doesn't look like those teams had any rookies. The vets on those teams should already be in the league unless i start my league in that year. Like say 1884. I thought about creating the teams i need but then i would have to add the ballparks, players and maybe check league totals. Idk it just seems like more work. So my conclusion at this point is that i may be able to convert my 23 league to 24 in 1893 sim year. At that point there are no missing teams just the extra teams. However if there were rookies on those extra teams then that throws a monkey wrench in my idea.

08-28-2023, 05:40 PM	#19
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,074	The 1884 missing team is also a problem in 1890... This is a frustrating problem since they know about it since the release of this year version. Contrary to the other seasons I have to created teams since the game doesn't they're a bigger problem with those two seasons: the players don't have their stat line in their history. That wasn't a problem at all with the previous versions of the game but they found a way to F it up this year. What's frustrating is that we are almost in September and that haven't been fixed yet, but of course every little non game breaking "bug" in the card version of the game is fixed immediately... Yes I call that database mess game breaking because if you want realist result you must go back to OOTP 23 to copy all the data from those players edit screen in OOTP24 and it doesn't work that well since all those players will under perform in 1884 and 1890 if they play for one of those missing teams. __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update. Last edited by AESP_pres; 08-28-2023 at 07:38 PM.

08-28-2023, 06:50 PM	#20
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,525	Yeah it is a bit screwed up. I wouldn't expect any changes. They might address the problem in the next version though i seriously doubt. 19th century play isn't really a big focus. I can't really blame ootp. But i can blame ootp when it throws a band aid and create a bigger mess. You still have to manually make adjustments with the current setup. So whats the point of changing the actual teams? Couldn't you do the same with the real teams if you wanted? Would be nice if they allowed both options or if they gave a list and let you decide what historical franchises would come in the league. Which was what the teams csv file kinda is. I think that if ootp would add the missing teams or give us the info needed to add them would help a lot. The players are there in the Master file and you can import them but they are missing their rookie year. I've tried every which way i can think of to get the 1884 Richmond Virginias to import but so far nothing doing. It's not a last version case for me and i do understand thats its not that big of priority. At least i'm not the only one that finds it a bit frustrating.