Negro League players losing talent

3fbrown · 10-27-2023, 07:53 PM

I am running a historical league (in OOTP 23), started in 1920 currently in 1923. I include Negro League players, I manually import all of them - and in fact I manually adjust all MLB players as well, to normalize them so that average at any skill is always 50/100. It works fine in this league and in other leagues I have done.

Anyway, I am seeing a trend that Negro League players lose their talents very quickly. Not all of them, but many of them, especially the hitters. Oscar Charleston, Cristobal Torriente, Bullet Rogan, Cool Papa Bell, Dobie Moore, Alejandro Oms, all garbage. Martin Dihigo is already terrible, and he is a rookie! All of these guys started with very high talent levels, and within a year or two all were well below average. Turkey Stearnes is a rookie and still good, but has lost significant talent already, after just three months.

Like I said, it's not every single guy - Heavy Johnson and John Beckwith are still strong for example, and I don't see this happening to the pitchers - but for a shocking number of them they die instantly. Has anyone had a similar experience? The MLB players do not have this problem.

luckymann · 10-27-2023, 09:55 PM

Since 23 (and more so in 24), things are much improved in my experience with the NeLers. Far from perfect, but heaps better than the poo-storm of 22 and before for these guys.

I'm not seeing anything like this over these past two versions. So I'd have to suppose that the normalization might be the cause.

Are you using recalc or just dev engine?

3fbrown · 10-29-2023, 10:14 PM

No recalc, just the regular engine. But I don't know why my manual normalization would matter. And even if it did, I do it for all players, not just the Negro League players.

Thanks for the response, just seeing someone else's experience helps. I hope it's not the normalization, because honestly it works really well, better than OOTP does on its own by far, especially when combining players from different contexts.

luckymann · 10-30-2023, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3fbrown

No recalc, just the regular engine. But I don't know why my manual normalization would matter. And even if it did, I do it for all players, not just the Negro League players.

Thanks for the response, just seeing someone else's experience helps. I hope it's not the normalization, because honestly it works really well, better than OOTP does on its own by far, especially when combining players from different contexts.

OK so my Eclipse League save features hand-curated and manually imported NeLers among untouched and manually imported MLBers, and uses only the dev engine. It's on v23 and, as you'll see if you have a look at the thread in my sig, I'm not seeing anything like what you describe.

3fbrown · 01-25-2024, 02:29 PM

I'm in year 6 of this league, and the issues have not gone away. After further research, it is specifically the BABIP skill that goes way down for the best Negro League players. I'll attach a few images to give the idea of the problem. You can see that for these players, CON starts plummeting immediately upon arriving in the league, and it is entirely due to BABIP which is now at ridiculously low levels. They all started with very high BABIP!

Also note that EYE also goes does usually, while POW always stays high. And CON is entirely about BABIP, the strikeout rate never has a problem.

Any insight or experience here would be appreciated!

3fbrown · 01-25-2024, 02:30 PM

Oscar Charleston

3fbrown · 01-25-2024, 02:31 PM

Mule Suttles

3fbrown · 01-25-2024, 02:32 PM

Turkey Stearnes

luckymann · 01-25-2024, 06:34 PM

Got me stumped, this one 3fb.

Here's my Torriente under basically the same circumstances except the normalization - v23, dev only.

Oscar is a rookie in this league and the other two are yet to appear, so this is the only comparison I can offer.

G

3fbrown · 01-25-2024, 06:56 PM

Thanks, Lucky. I'm sure being Negro League guys is irrelevant really, but what would make a player's BABIP tank so quickly? I'm sure I must be doing something to trigger it, but heck if I know what it is. And I don't know where else to ask this question.

It's a bummer too, since these guys are a big part of why I am making this league the way I am.

luckymann · 01-25-2024, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3fbrown

Thanks, Lucky. I'm sure being Negro League guys is irrelevant really, but what would make a player's BABIP tank so quickly? I'm sure I must be doing something to trigger it, but heck if I know what it is. And I don't know where else to ask this question.

It's a bummer too, since these guys are a big part of why I am making this league the way I am.

Yeah, I hate seeing people go through this and not being able to unpick the problem. It's the random way it is happening that worries me the most - I can't even see a pattern of the types of players being affected within the NeL subset, IE only early guys or those who played more in the non-US leagues.

What "make-bad" settings are you using?

G

3fbrown · 02-10-2024, 11:41 PM

I use the defaults, but that should not matter since I change all the talents after import anyway. And these guys are the superstars, they have plenty of PT in real life.

10-27-2023, 07:53 PM	#1
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	Negro League players losing talent I am running a historical league (in OOTP 23), started in 1920 currently in 1923. I include Negro League players, I manually import all of them - and in fact I manually adjust all MLB players as well, to normalize them so that average at any skill is always 50/100. It works fine in this league and in other leagues I have done. Anyway, I am seeing a trend that Negro League players lose their talents very quickly. Not all of them, but many of them, especially the hitters. Oscar Charleston, Cristobal Torriente, Bullet Rogan, Cool Papa Bell, Dobie Moore, Alejandro Oms, all garbage. Martin Dihigo is already terrible, and he is a rookie! All of these guys started with very high talent levels, and within a year or two all were well below average. Turkey Stearnes is a rookie and still good, but has lost significant talent already, after just three months. Like I said, it's not every single guy - Heavy Johnson and John Beckwith are still strong for example, and I don't see this happening to the pitchers - but for a shocking number of them they die instantly. Has anyone had a similar experience? The MLB players do not have this problem.

10-27-2023, 09:55 PM	#2
luckymann Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 12,748	Since 23 (and more so in 24), things are much improved in my experience with the NeLers. Far from perfect, but heaps better than the poo-storm of 22 and before for these guys. I'm not seeing anything like this over these past two versions. So I'd have to suppose that the normalization might be the cause. Are you using recalc or just dev engine? __________________ HISTORICAL DO-OVERS PIRATES A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE

01-25-2024, 02:29 PM	#5
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	Update to this problem I'm in year 6 of this league, and the issues have not gone away. After further research, it is specifically the BABIP skill that goes way down for the best Negro League players. I'll attach a few images to give the idea of the problem. You can see that for these players, CON starts plummeting immediately upon arriving in the league, and it is entirely due to BABIP which is now at ridiculously low levels. They all started with very high BABIP! Also note that EYE also goes does usually, while POW always stays high. And CON is entirely about BABIP, the strikeout rate never has a problem. Any insight or experience here would be appreciated! Attached Images

01-25-2024, 02:30 PM	#6
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	Oscar Charleston Attached Images

01-25-2024, 02:31 PM	#7
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	Mule Suttles Attached Images

10-29-2023, 10:14 PM	#3
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	No recalc, just the regular engine. But I don't know why my manual normalization would matter. And even if it did, I do it for all players, not just the Negro League players. Thanks for the response, just seeing someone else's experience helps. I hope it's not the normalization, because honestly it works really well, better than OOTP does on its own by far, especially when combining players from different contexts.

01-25-2024, 02:32 PM	#8
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	Turkey Stearnes Attached Images

01-25-2024, 06:34 PM	#9
luckymann Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 12,748	Got me stumped, this one 3fb. Here's my Torriente under basically the same circumstances except the normalization - v23, dev only. Oscar is a rookie in this league and the other two are yet to appear, so this is the only comparison I can offer. G __________________ HISTORICAL DO-OVERS PIRATES A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE Last edited by luckymann; 01-25-2024 at 06:39 PM.

01-25-2024, 06:56 PM	#10
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	Thanks, Lucky. I'm sure being Negro League guys is irrelevant really, but what would make a player's BABIP tank so quickly? I'm sure I must be doing something to trigger it, but heck if I know what it is. And I don't know where else to ask this question. It's a bummer too, since these guys are a big part of why I am making this league the way I am.

02-10-2024, 11:41 PM	#12
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	I use the defaults, but that should not matter since I change all the talents after import anyway. And these guys are the superstars, they have plenty of PT in real life.