19th Century 3D Ballparks

[asrivkin]

Hi all,

With encouragement from Garlon and Silvam, I'm going to start a new project--making 3D ballparks for some 19th century teams. I've got two of them done already and will post them shortly, but I figured I'd use this thread starter to set expectations and ground rules, if only for myself.

Scope: Garlon identified missing ballparks for the still-existing franchises who played in the 1800s. I've copied his list at the bottom of this post and will try to remember to edit this post from time to time to point to the relevant links. At the moment, I'm also hoping to make a few other parks that might be of general interest, like the Providence Grays' home park in 1884 and the Orioles' park from the 1890s. Unlike my other thread, which is pretty open-ended, I do imagine this thread reaching an end--I'm not going to try to make something for the Wilmington Quicksteps, for instance.

Verisimilitude and Historicity: I really enjoy the research aspect of ballpark making, which is probably why I've ended up making all the 1910s-1920s ones that I have. There's a lot less available for most of the parks below, but I expect to be able to do at least something for all of them (famous last words).

Having said that, there are things that will 100% be ahistorical. The most obvious one is that the distance to the mound changed during this period, and there is no way to make the game show anything other than 60' 6". However, I'll try to do things like make the mound into a box or a strip or whatever was contemporary. If necessary, I'll also be increasing the dimensions of ballparks so that all the outfielders are on the field rather than starting a play out in the street. After some experiments and measurements, though, I don't think it'll be a problem as often as I'd feared.

Finally, while I usually put in place- and period-appropriate advertisements in my other ballparks I'm going to leave these parks free of ads on the walls.

Pace:: As I noted, I've already got two of these done. My pace on doing parks is pretty uneven--if I've got the time and the gumption and the research done, I can get something done in a couple of days. If any or all of those things are missing, it can be a while. I'm reluctant to give a timeframe, but I suspect I can get all of these done in calendar 2024.

Other: I'm happy to take comments, and to prioritize getting something of particular interest done earlier. I'm happy to have other folks do any (or many!) of the parks below, just let me know what you might want to tackle so I won't worry about it. I'm also happy to provide the Sketchup files to interested parties who want to alter/improve what I post.

Also, a warning if needed--I could be a more detail-oriented guy. I also will sometimes just forget to put in dugouts (though other times I'll omit them if there's no evidence they existed), or run out of patience setting up the grid and not put in as many fence posts as I might. Thank you for your support and patience.

28 Jan 2024 note: Beginning with Sportsman's Park 1882, the park factors will be set to 1.00. Other factors can be added from era_ballparks or other sources as desired. At this writing the first three parks posted (Cincinnati League Park I, Eastern Park, South End Grounds 1888) have different, ahistorical and non-neutral park factors that can be set to 1.00 by users as desired/needed. Depending on personal bandwidth, I may try to reissue these three parks with different park factors if needed.

Garlon's Original List:
Cubs
23rd_street_grounds_1876-1877
lake_front_park_1878-1882 (combined with Lake Front Park 1883-1884)
lake_front_park_1883-1884
west_side_park_1885-1890
south_side_park_1891-1893

Braves
south_end_grounds_1876-1887
south_end_grounds_1888-1894

Cardinals
sportsmans_park_1882-1892

Pirates
exposition_park_1882-1884
recreation_park_1885-1890 [by dfswans]

Reds
bank_street_grounds_1882-1883
league_park_1884-1893
League Park II 1894-1900

Giants
polo_grounds_1883-1888 (We have Polo Grounds 1889-1890, 1890-1910.). [in progress]
polo_grounds_1889-1890

Phillies
recreation_park_1883_1886
philadelphia_baseball_grounds_1887-1894

Dodgers
washington_park_1884-1889
washington_park_1890 (Suggest using Washington Park 1884-1889.)
eastern_park_1891-1897

Garlon's List of Additional Parks for InteGREATed Mod:
Union Baseball Grounds (Chicago White Stockings 1871-1875): Use Lake Front Park 1871, use 23rd Street Park 1872-1875
Avenue Grounds (Cincinnati Reds 1876-1879): avenue_grounds
Capitoline Grounds (Brooklyn Atlantics 1871-1872): capitoline_grounds
National League Park I (Cleveland Blues 1887-1888) : national_league_park
National League Park II (Cleveland Blues 1889-1890): national_league_park_ii
Oakdale Park (Philadelphia Athletics 1882) Only 1 season, so not essential.: oakdale_park
Newington Park (Baltimore Orioles 1882) Only 1 season, so not essential.: newington_park
Oriole Park (Baltimore Orioles 1883-1888): oriole_park
Oriole Park II (Baltimore Orioles 1889-1891)

Additional Parks by dfswans
Jefferson Street Grounds, Philadelphia (AA, 1883-1890)
Union Grounds, Brooklyn (various NA, NL, and amateur teams 1862-1882)
Eclipse Park I, Louisville (AA and NL, 1882-1892)
Eclipse Park II, Louisville (NL1893-1899)
Union Park, Baltimore (post-fire NL 1895-1899)
Congress Street Grounds, Boston (PL 1890, AA 1891, some NL games in 1894)
Kennard Street Park, Cleveland (NL, 1879-1884)
Hartford Ball Club Grounds, Hartford (NA and NL, 1874-1876)


Additional Parks by asrivkin
Recreation Park, Detroit (NL, 1881-1888)

The first eight parks by asrivkin (that's me) did not include daytime/nighttime/diagram images. On 17 March 2024 I added a post showing where these missing files and new versions of these parks can be downloaded, and I'll also point to new versions below. For version control purposes, the new files will have "complete" in their zip file names.

[asrivkin]

For starters, here's Cincinatti's League Park (I), home to the AA's Reds from 1884-1890 and where they remained when they joined the NL. In 1894 the park was redone/renovated, and what is the grandstand became outfield seating. So, that'll be another ballpark.

Here's a bunch of pictures and history from Digital Ballparks.

This seemed like a relatively straightforward park to make, so was the first one I tackled. Per my usual practice I'll include some historical shots along with some screenshots below. It could probably stand to have a backdrop behind the stadium so views from CF don't look so stark, but that's a problem for later me...

Google Drive Link for League Park (I) in Cincinnati

[Ty Cobb]

This will be a joy to watch unfold!

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

This will be a joy to watch unfold!

Here, here!!!

[silvam14]

Wow! This is awesome!. I am working with someone on doing the 1883 Polo Grounds, not sure when it will be done, but you can put it as "in progress"


Thanks!

[Flying_Canuck]

Amazng! I read the first post thoroughly and loved the amount of thought/planning you are putting into this project. The first Cincinnati stadium already shows this series will be something special

Who's ready for the new season in 2024? I know I am! And the 3D forum will continue to be a great resource for baseball of all eras

[asrivkin]

Thanks for the encouragement, and I've got your Polo Grounds note, Silvam!

Here's the other one I have ready right now--Brooklyn's Eastern Park, also briefly known as Brotherhood Park and even more briefly known as Atlantic Park. There's a "biography" of it at SABR, found here.

Eastern Park was home to the Brooklyn Dodgers from 1891-1897, back in their Bridegroom days. It was built for the Brooklyn Players' League team, however, which is where the "Brotherhood Park" moniker came from.

Google Drive link to Eastern Park

As is sometimes the case, there's both not much information available and what is available is contradictory. The model seems cock-eyed, for two reasons--first, the original left field dimension was seen as way too short and was lengthened in 1891 by moving the field away from the backstop and then rotating it a bit. Second, the one insurance map I found showed the two halves of the grandstand to be asymmetrical, and I went with the map rather than common sense. The positions and existence of outfield bleachers also changed with time, too. There's one photo out there, which shows the 3b end of the grandstand, and a few drawings. There's also a commercially-sold print (I included a screenshot below) that shows three towers vs. the two in this model. All in all I think this hangs together, though!

This is probably most like what the field was like in about 1893--I went with the pitching strip vs. pitching mound, and have the stands in what I think would be their final configuration. For sticklers I could make a version with a mound vs. pitching strip, the main reason I didn't do it already is because it takes 20 minutes to get this thing to output its .obj file--I'm 99% sure it's due to the too-detailed buildings I downloaded from 3D warehouse and stuck on Powell Street!

As usual, comments are welcome and I hope you enjoy it!

[micropterus58]

Thanks, your work and dedication are amazing. Finding information and pictures from 1980 can be hard, let alone 1880. I see you have trouble with Cincinatti, er, Cincinnati, or Cincy too. I live near Hartford, CT and they have a vintage base ball club with 19th century uniforms and rules. http://ctvbba.org/clubs/active-clubs...icut-bulldogs/
A high school teacher was the great grandson of HOFer Roger Connor who was from nearby Waterbury. These ballparks should be good for high school and college parks. I have been using your Jazz Age parks with edited advertisements. I use local ads in my fictional New England league.

[asrivkin]

Originally Posted by micropterus58

I see you have trouble with Cincinatti, er, Cincinnati, or Cincy too.

LOL. I'm sure the Queen City is a lovely place, no matter how I spell it at any given moment.

[kcstengelsr]

Another worthy project! Combine these 19th century parks with the uniforms by silvam/no pepper and we should be in for some fun. Now if we could only get the developers to allow custom stockings...

Hey asrivkin and flying canuck, I mentioned to both of you my wish that someday that somebody create something like a pasture/meadow type park. I don't imagine that any fences will be created as visual but one can set fence dimensions shorter than infinity (like 500 feet maximum) along with "invisible fence" height of one foot so the ball does not roll forever with the fielder chasing after it. I suppose "fences" can be woven around obstacles like a tree or a barn here or there in fair territory. Without grandstands I suppose the key would be to have a really nice 360 degree pasture/meadow background. I imagine no proper skinned infield, just kind of worn paths between the bases (or skinned pitcher area or skinned batting area). Consider pasture/meadow ballpark as a place for the early pro teams to play back when they had to barnstorm (possibly with some barn jutting out in the outfield).

Best wishes and good luck with the 19th century ballparks.

[zappa1]

This is gonna be great. I'm gonna love this.

A funny side note on Cincinnati, the old guy that lives across the hall from me is Mr. Cicanatti. He tells me since forever they call him Cincinnati. And guess who his favorite team is? ha ha

[Garlon]

This is great stuff.

For anyone following the thread, if you find any links to drawings, diagrams, photographs or any other useful information about these ballparks please share them.

[asrivkin]

Thanks all! And yes, kcstengelsr, I've had you and your request in mind for a while--hopefully I can make what you're looking for as a bonus 19th century park.

[asrivkin]

Today's offering is one of the iconic parks of the late 1800s, Boston's South End Grounds in its 1888-1893 configuration (usually styled "South End Grounds (II)" in discussions. There were three consecutive parks on this site, in use from 1871-1914, and collectively seeing their home team's name change from the Red Stockings through several different names before settling on the Braves. However, they were known as the Beaneaters during their entire tenure in this version of the South End Grounds. There's a SABR article on the history of the three parks on the site here.

Google Drive Link to South End Grounds 1888

This one is similar in a lot of ways to the Brooklyn Eastern Park I posted last time, most obviously in the conical towers, but also in the overall rectangular shape. I played a test game and things seemed to work fine even with the very short lines--players never set up there so they obey the grid. Having said that, the grid gets very wonky right at the lines, and I did see a case of an outfielder leave the field to fetch a ball. On the other hand, I also see that on occasion with other larger fields, so it may just be one of those things.

I included the Sketchup file in the download if folks who were comfortable with it wanted to tweak anything. I took the pragmatic approach that the parts of the stadium that aren't in a camera angle didn't matter, so the outside of the stadium is less accurate than it cold be (but not less accurate than necessary. ). I used the park factors in gambo's chart for the South End Grounds, and put the dimensions from Green Cathedrals as inputs in the game itself. The actual model has slightly different dimensions but are pretty close, and of course the game will use what's input rather than read the model. One of the camera angles is a bit of an easter egg, though it's more properly associated with the earlier South End Grounds...

OK, that's a lot of text (I also noticed that it's really 1894 not 1893 and can't edit the title--whoops!). Here are the screenshots. Next up I'm planning to tackle the von der Ahe era Sportsman's Park...

[Ty Cobb]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the work you put into this. Thank you!

[Cod]

This is awesome stuff! Thanks for letting us join the ride. How are you discovering the build plans for these stadiums?

[asrivkin]

Originally Posted by Cod

This is awesome stuff! Thanks for letting us join the ride. How are you discovering the build plans for these stadiums?

I've been kicking around writing a blog post about it, but in short the Library of Congress has a large set of fire insurance maps digitized, most of the cities we're talking about here are large enough to have had atlases published (and the 19th century is long enough ago that they're in the public domain), and there are enough fans of these MLB teams that a lot of the random research appears on fan pages (and places like Digital Ballparks or the Green Cathedrals book).

For the slightly later, minor league parks in my other thread I've been able to take advantage of some of these factors, but also lean on 1930s-1940s aerial photos from the National Archives and the USGS, and contemporary city directories and newspapers.

It also helps that I'm a research scientist for my day job, so I have a lot of experience doing research!

[Pelican]

Amazing work bringing these old parks to life. I admire your work and appreciate the effort.

Funny you mention the Wilmington Quicksteps, a Union Association (and therefore major league) team for only a couple of months in 1884. They would be at the end of a long list. As it happens, they played in Union Park, which later (1918) became Union Park Gardens, where I now live. There's no trace left of the old ballpark, but I have been able to locate it on old insurance maps. As of yet, no photographs, and no clue as to the dimensions. I did check the Library of Congress collections, and they have more atlas and map sources. Someday I'll take the train down, to see if they shed any light on the stadium itself. If I could ever retrieve enough information, I might try to teach myself how to model old ballparks.

[PocketsAintFull]

It's really nice even just to see the old images and maps you've found, thanks

[spanky8992]

Great work!