Making Negro League a Major League?

[KurtBevacqua]

All I wanna do is have the Negro League co-exist with everything else, but with major league financials enabled. I want historical expansion and I want historical negro league players imported into the game just as they normally would be, but I don't want it treated as a minor league financially as the game defaults to. I can't find any way to override that. Thoughts?

[luckymann]

The simple fact is this: much to the game's detriment, the only thing that has changed for NeLers is the way SOME of their historical stats are treated. If they played in a Negro League now deemed by the MLB to be a "major" league, then the stats they generated from those year(s) IRL are treated as MLB-equivalent.

That is it.

The players themselves and the Negro League structure are still classed as minor-league.

The stats for any seasons they might have played in years or leagues not deemed "major" are treated as minor league-equivalent.

There is no way to use the NeL or its players without some level of personal involvement other than with the players coming in if you invoke historical minors and a single "Negro League" appearing from 1920 onward as a minor league setup under the same settings.

I'm not saying it is impossible to do what you are suggesting. All I am saying is that you cannot do so with the game's "out of the box" settings.

G

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally Posted by luckymann

The simple fact is this: much to the game's detriment, the only thing that has changed for NeLers is the way SOME of their historical stats are treated. If they played in a Negro League now deemed by the MLB to be a "major" league, then the stats they generated from those year(s) IRL are treated as MLB-equivalent.

That is it.

The players themselves and the Negro League structure are still classed as minor-league.

The stats for any seasons they might have played in years or leagues not deemed "major" are treated as minor league-equivalent.

There is no way to use the NeL or its players without some level of personal involvement other than with the players coming in if you invoke historical minors and a single "Negro League" appearing from 1920 onward as a minor league setup under the same settings.

I'm not saying it is impossible to do what you are suggesting. All I am saying is that you cannot do so with the game's "out of the box" settings.

G

Pretty much what my entire day of trial and error corroborates. MLB has gone on record now and said Negro Leagues are a Major League and their stats will be treated as such. Would be nice if OOTP did the same.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

MLB has gone on record now and said Negro Leagues are a Major League and their stats will be treated as such. Would be nice if OOTP did the same.

Well, it does. It just doesn't treat the "concept" of "Negro League" as a major league in a game context.

And to do so is nowhere near as simple as you or I might perceive under the current framework and how the game works. But workarounds are possible and we just have to hope that one is found and implemented for this.

Until then, however, you would have to conceptualise and implement it using manual means. Pretty much every one of the saves you see in my signature includes or has included NeL players in one form or another via this route. So trust me when I say that, while this is possible, it comes with its own set of challenges and is definitely not for the faint-hearted.

If you want to discuss further, hit me up on a PM.

G

[KurtBevacqua]

Thanks. PM sent.

[congokurtz]

A few versions back I played with financials on with the NeL for a few seasons. I haven't tried it with this latest versions but I still think you can do it. You'll need to set up a historical league with minors on, once you've gone through the setup and the sim launches, you'll need to go to the league settings for the NeL. Then go to rules, and deselect allow players on unaffiliated teams to be purchased by major leagues. Then go to leagues and teams and under parent league select not affiliated. I also select major league for league level.Then go back to rules and enable trading if you want trading. Also set your roster size. Then go to financials and enable financials . There you can enable reserve clause rule, pick the year you want your financials and customize as you please. For the entire MLB season trading and free agent picks up will occur, depending on your settings. When the MLB rollovers to the next season, NeL players will be imported but your league will revert automatically to being affiliated with the MLB, you'll then have to change all the setting you did before except for financials. You won't be able to change financials until the NeL preseason starts, however any changes you made last season should remain

When I played this way I was very ignorant on who the great NeL players were so I wasn't too concerned about how they were rated. Since then I've become much more aware of the great NeL players, so my problem lately with running an NeL league is relying on how they are rated by the game. Currently I'm running an NeL league on 24 that I'm editing all NeL players seasonally to match more with the stats from the seamheads data base.

Good Luck. And hopefully one day OOTP will be able to figure out a way for the NeL to cut the cord from the MLB.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by luckymann

Well, it does. It just doesn't treat the "concept" of "Negro League" as a major league in a game context.

And to do so is nowhere near as simple as you or I might perceive under the current framework and how the game works. But workarounds are possible and we just have to hope that one is found and implemented for this.

Until then, however, you would have to conceptualise and implement it using manual means. Pretty much every one of the saves you see in my signature includes or has included NeL players in one form or another via this route. So trust me when I say that, while this is possible, it comes with its own set of challenges and is definitely not for the faint-hearted...

G

At my age, I will just leave such things to younger, more energetic guys. I'm reluctant to spend more time modding things and changing player ratings than actually playing the game.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by congokurtz

A few versions back I played with financials on with the NeL for a few seasons. I haven't tried it with this latest versions but I still think you can do it. You'll need to set up a historical league with minors on, once you've gone through the setup and the sim launches, you'll need to go to the league settings for the NeL. Then go to rules, and deselect allow players on unaffiliated teams to be purchased by major leagues. Then go to leagues and teams and under parent league select not affiliated. I also select major league for league level.Then go back to rules and enable trading if you want trading. Also set your roster size. Then go to financials and enable financials . There you can enable reserve clause rule, pick the year you want your financials and customize as you please. For the entire MLB season trading and free agent picks up will occur, depending on your settings. When the MLB rollovers to the next season, NeL players will be imported but your league will revert automatically to being affiliated with the MLB, you'll then have to change all the setting you did before except for financials. You won't be able to change financials until the NeL preseason starts, however any changes you made last season should remain

When I played this way I was very ignorant on who the great NeL players were so I wasn't too concerned about how they were rated. Since then I've become much more aware of the great NeL players, so my problem lately with running an NeL league is relying on how they are rated by the game. Currently I'm running an NeL league on 24 that I'm editing all NeL players seasonally to match more with the stats from the seamheads data base.

Good Luck. And hopefully one day OOTP will be able to figure out a way for the NeL to cut the cord from the MLB.

That will probably be long after I'm gone.

The good thing, however, is that players of this game, and people in general society, are becoming more aware of these players. Some group, I think Seamheads, is doing a lot of good research in this area.

[Antonin]

The game also appears to be incomplete in the Negro League teams that it does include. I set up a game in 1925, with the goal of having the champion of the Eastern Colored League and the champion of the Negro National League play a "Colored World Series," as they did in real life. But the game does not even include an ECL.

The "Negro League" was not a single entity. Different leagues existed at different times. Some of the leagues did not survive very long because of financial weakness, logistical problems and player defections. But where more than one league existed at the same time, and they survived long enough to have championship games between each other, they should at least be portrayed correctly in the game.

[thehef]

I don't know as much about NeLg history as others, but there was a lot of instability & movement of teams & leagues, especially in the earlier decades of the 1900's. In addition, even where leagues & their team components were known, there's the question of player stats being available. IOW, if the stats aren't available for the players, then that team or league can't really be included in OOTP.

Given all of that, a pretty nice effort was made to include a reasonable and relatively stable NeLg structure in OOTP, IMO (I believe a lot of credit for that goes to the late, great Spritze; surely there were others, too). From doing my own research, there is a team or two that could be added (players & stats are known & available) to most OOTP NeLg seasons, which is not at all to criticize the work put in to include NeLgs in OOTP but simply to recognize that it was and still is a work in progress.

So I think with all of that in mind, then to this point...

Originally Posted by Antonin

... where more than one league existed at the same time, and they survived long enough to have championship games between each other, they should at least be portrayed correctly in the game.

... that's pretty much what's included in OOTP, although it's likely that those few teams I alluded to could - and may very well be at some point - be added.

[Antonin]

Seamheads has nearly complete player stats on the ECL and the NNL for each team for 1925. Batting and pitching. The only thing that seems to be missing is fielding stats for the regular season. However, Seamheads does have fielding stats for the 1925 "Colored World Series." That is why I wanted to start a game in 1925.

I don't buy OOTP every year, but I bought OOTP22 and this year I bought OOTP25. I see that the only Negro League available in OOTP22 for 1925 was the NNL, and it is the same in OOTP25. The ECL is missing, at least for 1925, even though there was a "Colored World Series" between it and the NNL that year. I hope that someday, getting these leagues right will be a higher priority. Oh well. It's not up to me.

[congokurtz]

Originally Posted by Antonin

Seamheads has nearly complete player stats on the ECL and the NNL for each team for 1925. Batting and pitching. The only thing that seems to be missing is fielding stats for the regular season. However, Seamheads does have fielding stats for the 1925 "Colored World Series." That is why I wanted to start a game in 1925.

I don't buy OOTP every year, but I bought OOTP22 and this year I bought OOTP25. I see that the only Negro League available in OOTP22 for 1925 was the NNL, and it is the same in OOTP25. The ECL is missing, at least for 1925, even though there was a "Colored World Series" between it and the NNL that year. I hope that someday, getting these leagues right will be a higher priority. Oh well. It's not up to me.

So I don't know if you've noticed, but most of the players that played for the ECL are included in the NeL import, at least the star players, so if you want to put the work in you could create ECL teams and move the players into ECL team rosters. But there is another problem, it seems most are very underrated, including HOF players in the ECL, so you'd have to spend time adjusting their ratings. Every now and then you get a player that isn't underrated, but it's rare.

Which always makes me wonder. What database does OOTP use to rate these players? It seems super inconsistent.

So once again, I resign to be happy with what OOTP provides but set aside hope that vast improvements to the Negro Leagues will be coming

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by congokurtz

So I don't know if you've noticed, but most of the players that played for the ECL are included in the NeL import, at least the star players, so if you want to put the work in you could create ECL teams and move the players into ECL team rosters...

I will take your word for it. I have only looked at Pittsburgh, because that is the team I want to play. I have been adding photos of those players, although eventually I will add photos for all the other Negro National League teams.

Originally Posted by congokurtz

So once again, I resign to be happy with what OOTP provides but set aside hope that vast improvements to the Negro Leagues will be coming

Yes, I'm with you on that. But I have no hope that vast improvements will come in my lifetime.

The Negro League teams are really the only way I can play historical saves. I have tried to play historical over the years, but I just don't feel comfortable with segregated baseball, even in a game. The more I learn about what black ballplayers went through back then, the more uncomfortable I am. The few "historical" saves I have played start with Cleveland in 1947, and even then, as I have said many times on this forum, I strongly dislike the name my city's team had back then.

I have a long-running fictional game going that is based on an alternate history where MLB collapsed and revived itself by consolidating into a no-color-line league that included existing MLB teams and Negro League teams. That's the only way I can play pre-1947 OOTP. I did consider starting a game as the 1927 Yankees, but...

Others really like historical play, and that's fine. More power to them. There are many ways to enjoy this amazing game.

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by Antonin

I will take your word for it. I have only looked at Pittsburgh, because that is the team I want to play. I have been adding photos of those players, although eventually I will add photos for all the other Negro National League teams.



Yes, I'm with you on that. But I have no hope that vast improvements will come in my lifetime.

The Negro League teams are really the only way I can play historical saves. I have tried to play historical over the years, but I just don't feel comfortable with segregated baseball, even in a game. The more I learn about what black ballplayers went through back then, the more uncomfortable I am. The few "historical" saves I have played start with Cleveland in 1947, and even then, as I have said many times on this forum, I strongly dislike the name my city's team had back then.

I have a long-running fictional game going that is based on an alternate history where MLB collapsed and revived itself by consolidating into a no-color-line league that included existing MLB teams and Negro League teams. That's the only way I can play pre-1947 OOTP. I did consider starting a game as the 1927 Yankees, but...

Others really like historical play, and that's fine. More power to them. There are many ways to enjoy this amazing game.

Hi.

I agree. But a way I mostly play is historical random debut. I do usually start in 1947, sometimes in 1960, when I was born, but if I do start pre-1947, I just turn off the color barrier under "Rules" and so get players of all ethnicities, which I want. If you are not a stickler for historical accuracy, and can enjoy Willie Mays or Doc Gooden in 1901 or 1927 playing against Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb or whatever, it might be a way for you to play historical and enjoy it.

And some people on this site, including on this thread, have put together databases where you can add Negro League players who did not get to play in the Majors due to segregation, to the draft lists. I admit I am not very good at using them, as I don't really understand how to upload players from Excel sheets to my game, and that sort of thing, but if you have the patience, that is an option whether you play one season historical otherwise accurately or play random debut. But certainly either way you can turn off the color barrier pre-1947 and add African American players before that date either way.

[JerryShoe]

I was planned 2 Negro League projects with the help of Luckymann, but OOTP didn't cooperate as hoped. Even going back to my Strat-O-Matic days, I'd never play seasons prior to 1951, the year when 2 huge stars had rookie years, one being the immortal Willie Mays. By then, even if there were no black Sam Dentes and such, at least most teams had good Black players and there were many stars (Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, etc.). Records prior to that time are watered down, too. I'm sure Babe Ruth would have hit the most lifetime homers until Hank Aaron would break it, but Aaron would have done it during the 1973 season since Ruth would not have 714 homers had he faced the Bullet Rogans of the day. And Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak? With little interleague movement, he hit in 56 straight games against 50% of the best white pitchers in baseball. In the word of Jim Bouton: Oh.

[pholmer]

A couple of years ago, I posted some info from an OOTP Negro Teams League (NTL) on Facebook's "The Historical Negro League Baseball Site". I acquired the NLT game from either the OOTP add-ons page or a link in a Forum post, I really don't remember. However, the consensus of other members was that the teams in the NLT game seemed to be made up of famous players who were associated with certain teams; the team rosters were filled by including other lesser-known players who had been with the team for a season or two.
I mention this only because I still have the NTL game and also the lists of pitcher and position players for the 22 teams in the game. I will gladly share them with anybody who wants them. I thought NLT might serve as a basis or framework for someone who wants to develop a new Negro Leagues OOTP game. If combined with seamheads data and other sources of information, I think it would be a good start. If anyone is interested, I am willing to help.
The NTL game has two leagues, each with two divisions. One league has six teams in each division, the other has five in each. (22 teams.) Since OOTP allows expansion, two more teams could be added and new players could be included. (New data on Negro Leaguers is being uncovered all the time.) It is unlikely that we will have the data for a true historical recreation of the Negro Leagues. But perhaps we can let them take the field again in our little digital universes.
Finally, I also have information to share from the Negro Leagues Dream Teams CD (2005?). In the 1950s, the Pittsburgh Courier newspaper conducted a survey on the greatest Negro Leagues players. They surveyed people who had actually seen them play. They came up with a first and second team. It’s just a survey, but I have it if anyone wants it.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by pholmer

In the 1950s, the Pittsburgh Courier newspaper conducted a survey on the greatest Negro Leagues players. They surveyed people who had actually seen them play. They came up with a first and second team. It’s just a survey, but I have it if anyone wants it.

Please post it. Would like to see it. I'm sure others would, too

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by JerryShoe

I was planned 2 Negro League projects with the help of Luckymann, but OOTP didn't cooperate as hoped. Even going back to my Strat-O-Matic days, I'd never play seasons prior to 1951, the year when 2 huge stars had rookie years, one being the immortal Willie Mays. By then, even if there were no black Sam Dentes and such, at least most teams had good Black players and there were many stars (Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, etc.). Records prior to that time are watered down, too. I'm sure Babe Ruth would have hit the most lifetime homers until Hank Aaron would break it, but Aaron would have done it during the 1973 season since Ruth would not have 714 homers had he faced the Bullet Rogans of the day. And Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak? With little interleague movement, he hit in 56 straight games against 50% of the best white pitchers in baseball. In the word of Jim Bouton: Oh.

Nah I don't agree that Ruth wouldn't have been Ruth. You're not accounting for the fact that not ever Negro Leaguer was a Josh Gibson or Satchel Paige. For every great black player that replaces a bad white player it might be vice versa with other players. Would Satchel have at least 250 wins.
Most likely.
Would Ruth still hit 714.
Pretty much.
Would Gibsonchit 800 home runs.
Nope not even close.
Not because he wasn't one of the best catchers of all time but because he would be catching more games and it would take its toll on his body.
We tend to focus in the white players not playing against black but forget it's also the other way around too.
Neither white or black players had a choice in who they played.
Great is great no matter what league they played in.

[JerryShoe]

Of course Ruth would have been Ruth, just with less homers. I'm sure he still would have hit the most, only "less-most". There is no way of knowing how many Josh Gibson would have hit. 250? 350? Eric Chalek's MLEs says 506, so I guess that's reasonable. For what it's worth, the same source figures Paige to win 293. In an integrated universe there are more good players available to push out the less talented, so both bad white players AND bad black players would be losing their jobs. And this would work against the numbers of the Negro Leaguers, too...I'm sure Oscar Charleston wouldn't outdo Ty Cobb's lifetime average, no matter how much lower each of their numbers "would" have been. And as you say, Great is great no matter what league they played in, but for me I don't enjoy playing seasons before 1951. Not saying that anyone should feel as I do, though, play and enjoy how you like.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by JerryShoe

Of course Ruth would have been Ruth, just with less homers. I'm sure he still would have hit the most, only "less-most". There is no way of knowing how many Josh Gibson would have hit. 250? 350? Eric Chalek's MLEs says 506, so I guess that's reasonable. For what it's worth, the same source figures Paige to win 293. In an integrated universe there are more good players available to push out the less talented, so both bad white players AND bad black players would be losing their jobs. And this would work against the numbers of the Negro Leaguers, too...I'm sure Oscar Charleston wouldn't outdo Ty Cobb's lifetime average, no matter how much lower each of their numbers "would" have been. And as you say, Great is great no matter what league they played in, but for me I don't enjoy playing seasons before 1951. Not saying that anyone should feel as I do, though, play and enjoy how you like.

There's no guarantee that the good players would push out the average, below average or bad players.
Sure the great ones you might could guarantee but i'm sure there are players we all can how they made it or are still in the Major Leagues
You might end up with more good black players or you may still have more good white players.
There's just no way to say.
However not getting to see what the great Negro Leaguers would do was a shame.
I can see Gibson hitting 500 however i think it would more likely be in the 400s. The most career home runs for a catcher is 399.
Like i said Gibson would be catching more and he might be facing Satchel Paige and Lefty Grove as well as facing the average pitchers.

I don't think i would want to have to choose between Lou Gehrig and Oscar Charleston or Babe Ruth and Josh Gibson.