Gambo and T_Wil1 Photopack

[Merkle923]

As promised, a few more things out of the 19th Century Album.

This is one of the famous "Mort Rogers" scorecards produced for sale at Boston Red Stockings games in 1871. Very few have survived, which is more than just a shame, because it's evident nearly all that have depict players from the home team - but Rogers produced at least some scorecards with players from visiting teams.

E.B. "Gene" Kimball, second baseman of the Forest Citys of Cleveland, would seemingly be an odd choice (but also a tantalizing suggestion of just how many different players Rogers might have had photographed in 1871). He hit just .191 with only one extra-base hit in his entire 29-game big league career.

I've shown the whole front of the scorecard and then isolated and cleaned up the image.

[Merkle923]

Mort Rogers wasn't the only guy with the scorecard + photo idea.

In Troy, home of the then major league Haymakers of the National Association, Burr Penfield issued a series of scorecards. I'm fortunate enough to have two of them. Here is the full image, and the detail, of Troy first baseman William "Clipper" Flynn, who knocked in 27 runs and hit .338 in his 29-game season. Flynn would also play for the Olympics of Washington in 1872.

[Merkle923]

Unlike Flynn and Kimball, Tom York was a long-timer - fifteen years in the 19th Century when six was a long career. After starting with Troy he played for two more National Association clubs, four National League teams (including managing what would become George Wright's powerhouse team in Providence the season before Wright got there), and finished up in '84 and '85 with the American Association Baltimore Orioles.

[Merkle923]

If these were in better shape...but they're not. Posted on the off chance they'd be useful. From the top:

Pitcher Larry Corcoran 1880 (three 30-win seasons, a 43-win season, three no-hitters, and two of the first career-ending sore arms - ending his career as an ambidextrous pitcher)
Larry Corcoran

Catcher Tom "Pat" Deasley 1881
Pat Deasley

Second Baseman Joe Gerhardt 1873
Joe Gerhardt

Outfielder Pete Gillespie 1880
Patrick Gillespie

[Merkle923]

From the sublime to the ridiculous - Topps put the name to these images on eBay tonight. It's Cliff Speck, who pitched in just 13 games and made only one start as a nearly-30-year-old rookie for the '86 Braves.

Speck is part of that seemingly endless supply of bad Mets first-round draft choices, their first pick from 1974 (17th overall). We can thus trace him, from his brief big league sojourn (Atlanta, 1986, Topps Vault) to Baltimore's camp (1983) to his first full year as a pro, at Wausau of the Midwest League in 1975.

What...and give up show business?

[rico43]

Schlepping through the many Topps Vault folders that have been saved for posterity, I've seen many of the original photos that made it to their card sets between 1957 and sometime this century. But a few gems that have popped up without warning have made me excited like a little kid.

Found this image of Hall of Famer Eddie Mathews in Folder BH, a mess of a folder that was largely newer photos. I have always sought the traditional batting and pitching photos from my personal collection, and Topps missed the boat on Captan Eddie; His 1966 Topps card was an airbrushed "M" hat and in 1967, he was hatless in an old photo due to his trade with the Astros. His '68 card had him in an Astros cap but he'd since been traded to the Tigers. That year, 1966, was the Braves' first year in Atlanta and the year I became a card collector. Finding this makes this project less tedious. Hope it (the project) helps others as well.




I had found this one earlier, in a different thread that I likewise had never seen. Bonus!

[tnfoto]

Facepack upgrade, pictured with the 1913 Atlanta Crackers.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by Merkle923

From the sublime to the ridiculous - Topps put the name to these images on eBay tonight. It's Cliff Speck, who pitched in just 13 games and made only one start as a nearly-30-year-old rookie for the '86 Braves.

So basically, Topps was confirming our Speck-ulations? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Speck is part of that seemingly endless supply of bad Mets first-round draft choices…

Hey, watch the shade, pal! Sure, we've had our share of bummers (starting with the 1-2 punch of Les Rohr and Steve Chilcott, and then the whiff-a-palooza of 1969-1972 [Randy Sterling, George Ambrow, Rich Puig, some guy named "Bengton"], and we keep throwing in the occasional Kirk Presley or Robert Stratton just to keep the fans from getting too cocky), but the overall NY Mets #1 Draftees team doesn't exactly suck:

1B: Gregg Jefferies (1985)
2B: Wally Backman (1977)
SS: Hubie Brooks (1978)
3B: David Wright (2001)
LF: Preston Wilson (1992)
CF: Lee Mazzilli (1973)
RF: Darryl Strawberry (1980)
C: Kevin Plawecki (2012)…okay, that's a weak spot

Bench: Ike Davis (2008), Tim Foli (1968), Jeromy Burnitz (1990), Terrence Long (1994), Jay Payton (1994), John Gibbons (1980)

But the strength of any Mets team is, of course, the pitching:

SP: Dwight Gooden (1982)
SP: Jon Matlack (1967)
SP: Matt Harvey (2010)
SP: Tim Leary (1979)
SP: Scott Kazmir (2002)
RP: Bobby J. Jones (1991)
RP: Mike Pelfrey (2005)
RP: Aaron Heilman (2001)
RP: Paul Wilson (1994)
RP: Philip Humber (2004)
RP: Calvin Schiraldi (1983)

Okay, most of the "relievers" were primarily starters, I'm just reconfiguring them for purposes of the "team".

Almost certainly not the best "#1 picks" team out there, given the absence of any Hall-of-Famers (thanks for blowing your shot, Doc! You too, Darryl! ), but I would bet heavily against it being anywhere near the worst.

I mean, the "Frank Thomas? Nah, we like Jeff Jackson" Phillies are right down the road…

[FatJack]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

So basically, Topps was confirming our Speck-ulations? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)



Hey, watch the shade, pal! Sure, we've had our share of bummers (starting with the 1-2 punch of Les Rohr and Steve Chilcott, and then the whiff-a-palooza of 1969-1972 [Randy Sterling, George Ambrow, Rich Puig, some guy named "Bengton"], and we keep throwing in the occasional Kirk Presley or Robert Stratton just to keep the fans from getting too cocky), but the overall NY Mets #1 Draftees team doesn't exactly suck:

1B: Gregg Jefferies (1985)
2B: Wally Backman (1977)
SS: Hubie Brooks (1978)
3B: David Wright (2001)
LF: Preston Wilson (1992)
CF: Lee Mazzilli (1973)
RF: Darryl Strawberry (1980)
C: Kevin Plawecki (2012)…okay, that's a weak spot

Bench: Ike Davis (2008), Tim Foli (1968), Jeromy Burnitz (1990), Terrence Long (1994), Jay Payton (1994), John Gibbons (1980)

But the strength of any Mets team is, of course, the pitching:

SP: Dwight Gooden (1982)
SP: Jon Matlack (1967)
SP: Matt Harvey (2010)
SP: Tim Leary (1979)
SP: Scott Kazmir (2002)
RP: Bobby J. Jones (1991)
RP: Mike Pelfrey (2005)
RP: Aaron Heilman (2001)
RP: Paul Wilson (1994)
RP: Philip Humber (2004)
RP: Calvin Schiraldi (1983)

Okay, most of the "relievers" were primarily starters, I'm just reconfiguring them for purposes of the "team".

Almost certainly not the best "#1 picks" team out there, given the absence of any Hall-of-Famers (thanks for blowing your shot, Doc! You too, Darryl! ), but I would bet heavily against it being anywhere near the worst.

I mean, the "Frank Thomas? Nah, we like Jeff Jackson" Phillies are right down the road…

It's Rick "Bengston", not "Bengton". Here he is with Pompano Beach in 1973. And you've neglected to include the likes of George Kazmarek, Al Shirley, Reese Havens, Brad Holt and Lee May Jr. And one of my personal favorites, Nathan Vineyard who lasted all of 35 innings as a starter in the low, low, low minors (where's Class D when you need it?), finishing with a career record of 0-5 with an ERA of 7.39. Out of baseball before he turned 20. I think I might be tempted to take that bet from you.

Though I think the Mets should stop taking catchers in the first round, I do tend to give them a pass on Chilcott. All the revisionist history aside, the scouts were evenly split between Chilcott and Jackson and Chilcott's almost immediate (and, ultimately, career ending) injury was not something that could have been foreseen. And, as Casey said, you have to have a catcher or you're going to have a lot of passed balls.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by FatJack

It's Rick "Bengston", not "Bengton". Here he is with Pompano Beach in 1973. And you've neglected to include the likes of George Kazmarek, Al Shirley, Reese Havens, Brad Holt and Lee May Jr. And one of my personal favorites, Nathan Vineyard who lasted all of 35 innings as a starter in the low, low, low minors (where's Class D when you need it?), finishing with a career record of 0-5 with an ERA of 7.39. Out of baseball before he turned 20. I think I might be tempted to take that bet from you.

Though I think the Mets should stop taking catchers in the first round, I do tend to give them a pass on Chilcott. All the revisionist history aside, the scouts were evenly split between Chilcott and Jackson and Chilcott's almost immediate (and, ultimately, career ending) injury was not something that could have been foreseen. And, as Casey said, you have to have a catcher or you're going to have a lot of passed balls.

Oh, we've certainly had our share of whiffs. How about that Tom Thurberg? Or Ryan "I hate baseball…but thanks for the $850,000 signing bonus" Jaroncyk? And there's the whole parade of not-quite-good-enough OFs, from Billy Beane to Lastings Milledge.

But I'll still make that bet: I checked out the Phillies and while they can scrape up a few good position men (Lieberthal, Utley, and an "oufield" where Lonnie Smith plays center between Luzinski and Pat Burrell), the pitching staff comes down to Cole Hamels and Larry Christenson, and then a drop-off to Pete Smith and Pat Combs, and an even steeper drop-off after that. (Carlton Loewer, come on down!) I'm pretty sure we can take them. Although, ironically, they've done a better job of drafting our catchers (Stearns, d'Arnaud) than we have.

How about the Pirates, say?

1B: Jeff King
2B: Neil Walker
SS: Craig Reynolds
3B: Richie Hebner
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Andrew McCutcheon
RF: Jermaine Allensworth
C: Jason Kendall

Bench: Pedro Alvarez, Willie Greene, Dick Sharon, Dale Berra, Sammy Khalifa, Steve Nicosia

SP: Gerrit Cole
SP: Kris Benson
SP: Paul Maholm
SP: Jameson Taillon
SP: Bryan Bullington
RP: Brad Lincoln
RP: Rod Scurry
RP: Jim Winn
RP: Vic Black
RP: John van Benschoten
RP: Sean Burnett

Serviceable starting nine, even with the complete lack of OFs after the two stars, but I think we bury them on the mound.

The Yankees? Well, that's really unfair because they gave up the pick for a free agent 9 of 11 years between 1979-1989, but they've managed to be decent the rest of the time, I guess:

1B: Ron Blomberg
2B: Rex Hudler
SS: Derek Jeter
3B: Pat Tabler
LF: Terry Whitfield
CF: Carl Everett
RF: Brian Buchanan
C: Thurman Munson

Bench: Eric Duncan, Charlie Spikes, Matt Winters, Jim Lyttle, and God-knows-who-else. (Dennis Sherrill? Bronson Sardinha? Slade Heathcott?)

SP: Scott McGregor
SP: Ian Kennedy
SP: Eric Milton
SP: Phil Hughes
SP: Bill Burbach
RP: Joba Chamberlain
RP: Matt Drews

And now we're down to Ryan Bradley and Andrew Brackman here, too. Just not enough depth, the few successes aside.

(Btw, I'm not giving the Yanks credit for Mark Prior or Gerrit Cole, since they didn't sign either of them. Not being able to get the guy's name on a contract is a miss, however accurate your scouting was, IMO.)

Maybe the Dodgers?

Nope:

1B: Paul Konerko
2B: Blake DeWitt
SS: Dave Anderson
3B: Damian Rolls
LF: Franklin Stubbs
CF: Bobby Valentine
RF: Chris Gwynn
C: Mike Scioscia

Bench: James Loney, Mark Bradley, Tom Goodwin, Bubba Crosby, Jason Repko, Terry McDermott

SP: Rick Sutcliffe
SP: Clayton Kershaw
SP: Bob Welch
SP: Rick Rhoden
SP: Chad Billingsley
RP: Scott Elbert
RP: Jamie McAndrew
RP: Chris Withrow
RP: Darren Dreifort
RP: Steve Howe

Their starting rotation crushes ours, but the team on the field is mediocre at best. You could boost the lineup by pushing Konerko to 3B (he played about 30 games there from '98 to '00) and inserting Loney, but you'd really be toying with the defense, then.

Well, no point in totally hijacking the thread, but I think my point stands. Overall, the Mets have done a fairly decent job with the #1s, the notable and well-remembered misses aside.

And yes, Chilcott was very highly rated, albeit I don't know how badly we needed a catcher after having stolen Jerry Grote from the Astros the previous winter. And the pre-draft coverage in the Chicago Tribune not only projected the Mets' taking Reggie (I guess they never asked M. Donald Grant what he thought about black athletes who date white women…), but said that the catcher the Athletics were likely to take at #2 was not Chilcott but Tom Grieve (who went third, to Washington). So the Mets not only goofed in taking a catcher, they took the "wrong" one, per the experts.

Ah, well.

[Merkle923]

So, back to the point.

As promised, a few more 19th Century items. Here is an 1872 Mort Rogers Boston photo scorecard of outfielder Andy Leonard, for whom we must give a debut year of 1871, though he was a regular on the first officially all-professional 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings (and, in fictional form, a hero of Darryl Brock's marvelous novel "If I Never Get Back.")

Leonard is a) a veteran of the first National League game, b) listed as the 19th player to make his major league debut, and c) an original 1869 Red Stocking.

[Merkle923]

Back to images from the rare "Just So" Tobacco cards of the Cleveland Spiders of 1893.

The more we apply modern analytics to 19th Century players, the more second baseman Clarence "Cupid" Childs looks like a legitimate candidate for the Hall of Fame. His career on base average was .416, his OPS+ a tidy 119, and in his 12 full seasons he produced a war of 44.4 - well ahead of Hall of Famers like Rabbit Maranville and Travis Jackson.

[Merkle923]

And another 19th Century player who didn't get his due.

George Cuppy (the birth name was Koppe) had a career winning percentage of .623 and an ERA+ of 127. He was also an original 1901 member of the team that became the Red Sox.

[Merkle923]

Metrics work against the man generally considered by those who saw them to be the top all-around player of the 19th Century.

William "Buck" Ewing's glory years as the catcher of the New York Giants (146 OPS+, the leader of the back-to-back World Series winners of 1888 and 1889) were behind him when this card came out in 1893. They were a distant memory on a Cooperstown plaque by the time this battered card appeared for the first time in 2012.

[Merkle923]

Like almost everybody else in the era, Charlie Zimmer had a nickname. "Chief" was that rarest of 19th Century catchers who survived the nearly-barehanded, nearly-maskless era sufficiently well to stay behind the plate for nearly all of his 19 years and still got behind the bat occasionally as player-manager of the 1903 Phillies (he played only 34 games at other positions).

More of these, including more of the Mort Rogers scorecards, and some rare 1888 California League photos, in the next few days.

[FatJack]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

And yes, Chilcott was very highly rated, albeit I don't know how badly we needed a catcher after having stolen Jerry Grote from the Astros the previous winter. And the pre-draft coverage in the Chicago Tribune not only projected the Mets' taking Reggie (I guess they never asked M. Donald Grant what he thought about black athletes who date white women…), but said that the catcher the Athletics were likely to take at #2 was not Chilcott but Tom Grieve (who went third, to Washington). So the Mets not only goofed in taking a catcher, they took the "wrong" one, per the experts.

Ah, well.

This is the revisionist history I was talking about. While its become a popular thing to say, there's precisely zero evidence that picking Chilcott ahead of Jackson was racially motivated (unless you're counting Jackson's say-so in his self-agrandizing book; and we all know Reggie would never lie to make others look worse and, by extension, himself look better; he'd never do that). You might even do better to mention George Weiss rather than Grant. At least Weiss had a history. But the fact is that Bing Devine made that call. I've seen it said otherwise (more revisionist history), but the scouts were pretty much evenly split on the two. Red Murff wanted the Mets to take Nolan Ryan with that pick and we got him in the tenth round. Another scout thought southpaw Ken Brett was the guy (he went 4th). And what it came down to was that Chilcott was a lefty hitting catcher--a skill position guy--versus an outfielder. You can always find outfielders. The Mets had a system full of them. Lefty hitting stud catchers are as rare as hen's teeth. Chilcott was also a high school kid while Jackson was a college player. It was felt, then, that their floors were pretty even but, just 17, Chilcott's ceiling was higher. While you had Grote at the major league level (and nobody really knew what he was yet--it wasn't like every other team was asking Houston about him...they weren't), they had no other decent catchers in the organization at the time--especially the lower minors. It was decided that catcher was the priority position going into the draft and Chilcott was, in their estimation, the best catcher in the draft.

The whole thing's a crap shoot. Odds are definitely higher for a first round pick to be a difference maker than a tenth round pick. But nobody really knows. And between any two consecutive picks? There's rarely a consensus except in retrospect. Jackson wasn't universally seen as "a sure thing" and few scouts (if any) saw Chilcott and pronounced him a future bust.

People make mistakes in judgement. George Weiss didn't want Seaver. Casey Stengel wanted to fire Whitey Herzog. The Mets chose Berra to succeed Hodges instead of Herzog. Absent real evidence and/or a clear pattern, I don't see how you can say (or intimate) passing on Jackson was racially motivated. Like any other team in baseball in 1966, the Mets wanted to win and, to do that, you pick the player that you think is best for your needs. And that's what they did. They were wrong, but, as the saying goes, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Or just plain bad luck.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[SDL]

And speaking of former Mets players, are there any images of Randy Niemann floating about?

[Amazin69]

I forgot Niemann was ever with Minnesota. Huh.

[hobbs11]

Originally Posted by Terry D

"Very like a whale."--Shakespeare

I suppose everyone has their own definition of a unicorn or a whale. Mine fall into several categories.

3. Players who have been found, but whose images are marginal or completely unusable for my purposes--too small, too badly photographed or colorized, too heavily autographed, etc. (Steve Dillard with the White Sox, Bernie Carbo with the Pirates, Barry Evans with the Yankees).


As you see, my various classes of baseball fauna may not be the same the rest of you use.

Terry D, by chance did you see this? Posted by John at baseball-birthdays via kylesportcards...

[Merkle923]

The Samoan-born minor league slugger, promoted to New York in 1968 after 51 homers in A-ball and thrown right only a home run hitting contest at Yankee Stadium against Mantle and Yastrzemski.

He got exactly one at bat with his first club and didn't resurface until 1974 in Kansas City. These two images are probably from spring training 1971.